Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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It’s looking likely that very bad news is looming for about 1700 workers at Ford in Bridgend. I imagine that the catalysts for the job loses are falling car sales and the phasing out of the Jaguar/ Land Rover engine.

However, if you were Ford, would you make a hefty investment into a country which is planning to isolate itself from the entire EU market? I don’t think we will be seeing Ford doing anything to save this plant from closure by investing in the next generation of vehicle power / traction units. It would make no sense.
In fact Ford have been seriously considering pulling out of Europe altogether, so Brexit isn't the only factor. If that seems unlikely to you, remember that a year ago their big rival General Motors pulled out, selling off Vauxhall and Opel to PSA.
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Zlatan

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The LibDem bet has a lot going for it... A win win situation. Win 17 times and then hitting the real jackpot.. cancelling Brexit. Now where is that rainbow when you need one?. I wont be able to find my pot of gold without it.
Just keep going on Yellow Brick road Dorothy..
 
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jonathan.agnew

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Totally agree. If you are moving bulk items from a specific point to another, perfect. Coal to power stations.. Etc etc But once people are involved with different starting points and varying destinations the train is always a compromise. It usually involves 6 journeys. One to station, one to near destination, then the destination all repeated to come back. And thats assuming direct journey.
Amazes me how many people champion rail journeys but last time they used a train was on Flying Scotsman or in OG's case Stephensons Rocket.
For efficient public transport train is not viable. Our network and fiasco proves it.
Yes, people might want an efficient rail system but if so they must pay for it. Either in ticket prices or via taxes and subsidy. Expecting rail to be both cost efficient (profitable) and time efficient for travellers really is pie in the sky. A modern dependable, useable for all profitable system can simply not exist. It must be paid for. There is a high price to pay for a good system and why should not train users subsidise those wishing or capable of utilising system.
Danidl summed it up when he told his he could travel accross northern spain in luxury, quickly for 50p or something. Who is really paying.? Not Danidl.
And the system hasnt brought radical changes to area. Youth unemployment still highest in Europe. Personally, I, d take E9 every time.Pay the tolls and travel to where I want to go. Not some station 40 miles away from beach.
As a londoner i never quite understand the high cost. A tube train as a batteryless electric vehicle must be as close to zero maintenance as one can get. Making them self driving dead easy compared to say an uber taxi. Infrastructure, rails etc, very low maintenance as any third world citizen would tell you.
 

Zlatan

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As a londoner i never quite understand the high cost. A tube train as a batteryless electric vehicle must be as close to zero maintenance as one can get. Making them self driving dead easy compared to say an uber taxi. Infrastructure, rails etc, very low maintenance as any third world citizen would tell you.
All fair points. Sheffield spent millions laying tram tracks and over head power cables all over city (and out to Meadow Hell) yet scrapped their trackless system years ago. As a kid I can rember electric buses with pantograph couplers to overhead cables. Dont think there is a modern equivalent but I, d guess as a system that must be cheapest to install and numerous charging stations for cars could be built into system.??? No tracks to lay or catch out cyclists. No batteries??? Anybody know why that system has no modern counterpart.??
 

oyster

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All fair points. Sheffield spent millions laying tram tracks and over head power cables all over city (and out to Meadow Hell) yet scrapped their trackless system years ago. As a kid I can rember electric buses with pantograph couplers to overhead cables. Dont think there is a modern equivalent but I, d guess as a system that must be cheapest to install and numerous charging stations for cars could be built into system.??? No tracks to lay or catch out cyclists. No batteries??? Anybody know why that system has no modern counterpart.??
My memory is of the trolley buses of Newcastle (the upon Tyne one, not Emlyn).

Surely today we could store enough energy in even fairly modest batteries (or supercaps) to allow the problems of short re-routing, complex junctions, etc. to be overcome? Just having the overhead wires when it is nice and simple. Add in sophisticated re-connecting to non-contiguous wires. You don't even need the expensive and complex buried wireless power systems that have been touted.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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As a londoner i never quite understand the high cost. A tube train as a batteryless electric vehicle must be as close to zero maintenance as one can get. Making them self driving dead easy compared to say an uber taxi. Infrastructure, rails etc, very low maintenance as any third world citizen would tell you.
Not quite so low cost as might seem. It's not so much the daily costs, which are very low, but the high intermittent costs. The trains work very hard around 19 hours a day, for some 24 hours for two days of the week. There's a lot of wear and tear so plenty of inspections, brake pad and other part changes.

Every now and then a whole train is pulled out for refurbishment, new wheels, bearings and host of other components, new upholstery, floor panels, glass replacements, repainting.

Then there's the tunnels maintenance. They suffer huge buildups of toxic wastes from brake pad wear and other dust sources, so they have to be brushed and vacuumed regularly for the safety of passengers.

There's two other intermittent tunnel work types too. One is rail replacement as they wear, remember they have constant trains running on them only minutes apart, not like a surface line with the occasional train.

The other tunnel work has occurred a number of times is upgrading or renewing the signalling system as the network has become ever busier.

Of course all these three types of tunnel work have to done in a small 4 hour window in the early hours. That means hitting each with a large number of workers in co-ordinated teams, and they have to be very highly paid for working at that anti social time under pressure in horrible conditions.

You can see how step by step these have been becoming more and more expensive, but it gets worse.

Occasionally whole new trains have to be ordered and commissioned, and like e-cars they are very expensive to buy, made more so by having to be specially designed expressly for the London system.

And now the most expensive of all, tunnelling and building a new line. The last whole new line was the Victoria Line, opened in the 1970s, but there was another undergound tunnel built as a link elsewhere later. These cost vast amounts that take decades to amortise, Crosslink being a good example £15 billions and counting.

As for self driving trains, that was achieved over 47 years ago with the Victoria Line in which the line is controlled and trains effectively driven from a Central London control room in SW1. So why do they have drivers sitting in the cab? It's the fault of the public, they kicked up about the prospect of having no driver so ever since there's a been man in each train cab holding a "dead mans handle" for a minimum of £40,000 a year.
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Surely today we could store enough energy in even fairly modest batteries (or supercaps) to allow the problems of short re-routing, complex junctions, etc. to be overcome?
Not modest batteries though, especially for rerouting.

An empty small two car tram typically weighs 36 tonnes. Add the full complement of 150 passengers that rises to around 45 tonnes. A loaded three car tram will reach 65 tonnes.

Those halting in an uncabled section will need a lot of energy to get rolling, especially if there's a slight upward incline.
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Danidl

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Sep 29, 2016
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Not quite so low cost as might seem. It's not so much the daily costs, which are very low, but the high intermittent costs. The trains work very hard around 19 hours a day, for some 24 hours for two days of the week. There's a lot of wear and tear so plenty of inspections, brake pad and other part changes.

Every now and then a whole train is pulled out for refurbishment, new wheels, bearings and host of other components, new upholstery, floor panels, glass replacements, repainting.

Then there's the tunnels maintenance. They suffer huge buildups of toxic wastes from brake pad wear and other dust sources, so they have to be brushed and vacuumed regularly for the safety of passengers.

There's two other intermittent tunnel work types too. One is rail replacement as they wear, remember they have constant trains running on them only minutes apart, not like a surface line with the occasional train.

The other tunnel work has occurred a number of times is upgrading or renewing the signalling system as the network has become ever busier.

Of course all these three types of tunnel work have to done in a small 4 hour window in the early hours. That means hitting each with a large number of workers in co-ordinated teams, and they have to be very highly paid for working at that anti social time under pressure in horrible conditions.

You can see how step by step these have been becoming more and more expensive, but it gets worse.

Occasionally whole new trains have to be ordered and commissioned, and like e-cars they are very expensive to buy, made more so by having to be specially designed expressly for the London system.

And now the most expensive of all, tunnelling and building a new line. The last whole new line was the Victoria Line, opened in the 1970s, but there was another undergound tunnel built as a link elsewhere later. These cost vast amounts that take decades to amortise, Crosslink being a good example £15 billions and counting.

As for self driving trains, that was achieved over 47 years ago with the Victoria Line in which the line is controlled and trains effectively driven from a Central London control room in SW1. So why do they have drivers sitting in the cab? It's the fault of the public, they kicked up about the prospect of having no driver so ever since there's a been man in each train cab holding a "dead mans handle" for a minimum of £40,000 a year.
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.. but with 5 million journeys each and every day, it is a cash cow.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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What a nonsense poster that's turned out to be. Vauxhall have a foot out of the door already since GM sold them off to PSA. Ford are closing Bridgend and are losing so much, £400 millions in Europe last year, they are seriously considering leaving Europe completely as GM have already done. They have already been shifting a lot of production to South America and China.

Toyota had to be given a huge government bribe after making noises about leaving. The money was supposed to be for making a new model here, but that was a con. It turned out to be the update of the Auris already made here, but the name changed back to it's old name of Corolla.

BMW making the Mini have already spoken with concern about Brexit and have openly said the Mini isn't secure here. A high proportion of the Mini parts are made in mainland Europe and shipped here for assembly and BMW already make Mini engines in an Argentinian joint plant.

Honda have already gone.

Just leaves Nissan ok for the moment.
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flecc

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5 million journeys,
I think all five million were on the last underground train I was on.

Talk about compulsory intimacy! It took ages to get the doors to close before we could move off, due to all the bodies bulging out.

And that was just the train. The platform, pedestrian tunnel and escalators we left were all packed with seething bodies jammed together.
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Fingers

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I think all five million were on the last underground train I was on.

Talk about compulsory intimacy! It took ages to get the doors to close before we could move off, due to all the bodies bulging out.

And that was just the train. The platform, pedestrian tunnel and escalators we left were all packed with seething bodies jammed together.
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You just have got off though?

Tell me you got off?

Wren kitchens has just created 1200 new manufacturing jobs.

Bloody brexit!
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Dont think there is a modern equivalent but I, d guess as a system that must be cheapest to install and numerous charging stations for cars could be built into system.??? No tracks to lay or catch out cyclists. No batteries??? Anybody know why that system has no modern counterpart.??
There's guided busways like The Busway that has a parallel cyclepath, but I don't think it's been entirely successful. Not electric but could easily have been:

Link one

Link two
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Tell me you got off?
No I didn't, only had three close stops to go to Warren Street station where I could get off and take a deep breath of the fresh traffic fumes in the Euston Road.

Wren kitchens has just created 1200 new manufacturing jobs.
No good to us unless we are selling the kitchens to China or elsewhere!

Seriously though Wren actually said "up to 1200", and are taking the jobs from those they are beating in the market, like B & Q. So as always with such internal competition, it's not new jobs, just shifting them.
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Fingers

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No I didn't, only had three close stops to go to Warren Street station where I could get off and take a deep breath of the fresh traffic fumes in the Euston Road.



No good to us unless we are selling the kitchens to China or elsewhere!

Seriously though Wren actually said "up to 1200", and are taking the jobs from those they are beating in the market, like B & Q. So as always with such internal competition, it's not new jobs, just shifting them.
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You had all those people close to you. Touching you even. And you didn't get off?

I get off when I'm in that situation. Luckily/unfortunately o don't usually travel at those times of the day.

Next time make sure you get off.
 

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