Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

To illustrate the difference, the rail service around the bottom of Spain going from Malaga along the coast to Gibraltar etc costs pennies to cover distances comparable to Bermingham to London or London to Brighton. .. what is the equivalent on the privitised services?.

With our chaotic fares system under privatisation it's impossible to be definitive, many cheap but very limited offers. I've just looked up London to Birmingham at a typical travel time on trainline.com and these were the offers:

Slow journey: £5.50 but limited availability.

Fast journey: £58.50 second class, £81 first class.

Very slow journey: £7 second class, £17 first class but only 4 tickets left.

Fast journey but later than requested time: £29.50 second class, £45 first class.

As you see, horribly expensive unless one wants to suffer long slow journeys or travel at inconvenient times.
.

 

[Danidl]

For environmental reasons E-bikes should have a purchase subsidy, similar to that e-cars get.

I got £4500 of the price of my e-car, though the government has reduced that to £3500 now.

Pro rata that would be about 15% of a popular model's price. Taking popular as a £1500 e-bike would mean a fixed £225 government subsidy. Taking that £225 from the price would mean less VAT, on a £1500 e-bke for example saving a further £45.

So total saved £270, reduced e-bike price £1230.
.

Interestingly the French have been doing that. I don't know about England, but there has been a subvention on tax for people who while still at work, purchase a bike in Ireland.
The general French subvention has gone, I think, but the town of Vannes has initiated a rebate scheme for their inhabitants ,on Electric bikes.
Even my local town council has bought a few EBikes for loaning out to people ..They can be loaned, no cost, for a week at a time.to residents.

 

[Zlatan]

For folk supporting nationalisation...
If a private company cant make an item profitably what makes you think government can do so?

And
If neither can produce it at a profit why is it being made?

When its made at a loss its a service to the country. If we decide the cost is worth paying, well fine. But dont kid yourselves that nationalising anything can turn a loss into a profit. It does no such thing, it just puts the cost up.
As a nation we did it for years in Steel industry, as at time it was thought to be strategically important to be able to make steel.
Yes, the rail system is in complete disarray, petsonally cant think of a worse person than Corbyn to take charge. He cant run labour party, let alone a rail network.

 

[Danidl]

With our chaotic fares system under privatisation it;s impossible to be definitive, many cheap but very limited offers. I've just looked up London to Birmingham at a typical travel time on trainline.com and these were the offers:

Slow journey: £5.50 but limited availability.

Fast journey: £58.50 second class, £81 first class.

Very slow journey: £7 second class, £17 first class but only 4 tickets left.

Fast journey but later than requested time: £29.50 second class, £45 first class.

As you see, horribly expensive unless one wants to suffer long slow journeys or travel at inconvenient times.
.

My recollection, for 3 euro for the equivalent distance on a commuter service. Clean train, stops at 8 mile intervals.

 

[Zlatan]

My recollection, for 3 euro for the equivalent distance on a commuter service. Clean train, stops at 8 mile intervals.

Paid for by somebody else.

 

[flecc]

For folk supporting nationalisation...
If a private company cant make an item profitably what makes you think government can do so?

And
If neither can produce it at a profit why is it being made?

When its made at a loss its a service to the country. If we decide the cost is worth paying, well fine. But dont kid yourselves that nationalising anything can turn a loss into a profit. It does no such thing, it just puts the cost up.
As a nation we did it for years in Steel industry, as at time it was thought to be strategically important to be able to make steel.
Yes, the rail system is in complete disarray, petsonally cant think of a worse person than Corbyn to take charge. He cant run labour party, let alone a rail network.

See my reply on this link, last paragraph in particular.

Why do you think our most successful competitors provide top class low cost subsidised train services?.
.

 

[Danidl]

For folk supporting nationalisation...
If a private company cant make an item profitably what makes you think government can do so?

And
If neither can produce it at a profit why is it being made?

When its made at a loss its a service to the country. If we decide the cost is worth paying, well fine. But dont kid yourselves that nationalising anything can turn a loss into a profit. It does no such thing, it just puts the cost up.
As a nation we did it for years in Steel industry, as at time it was thought to be strategically important to be able to make steel.

There are some things which are not profitable in themselves but essential for the survival of communities . In Ireland Water, Electricity and later harvesting of peat or turf as a fuel. State enterprise has a value, but one needs to distinguish between real strategic goals and mere clientism. In some cases the State needs to set up the infrastructure and to give credibility to an endeavour.. case in point Fire services, private security regulation authority, blood transfusion service. They may or may not generate profits but they make society work.

 

[flecc]

Paid for by somebody else.

Not quite, subsidised by all who pay tax, including the passenger.
.

 

[Danidl]

Paid for by somebody else.

Yes. Out of general taxation, out of subsidies given by the EU to promote clean efficient transportation. Used by millions of UK,and other visitors to the sunny Spanish coast. They then spend money down there,increasing regional tax take . Pollution is reduced compared to extra cars.,which might otherwise have been driven 1500 km from France.. What is there not to like?.
The notion that every little entity must be a profit centre is idiotic. One needs to take a systems approach.

 

[oldgroaner]

Hang on while I find my magnifier.
.

I'll loan you either an Electron Microscope or a Ouija Board, whichever is your preference

 

[oldgroaner]

To illustrate the difference, the rail service around the bottom of Spain going from Malaga along the coast to Gibraltar etc costs pennies to cover distances comparable to Bermingham to London or London to Brighton. .. what is the equivalent on the privitised services?.

you need a mortgage?

 

[boyabouttown]

Because that won't work! It's because so much cost is put on the tickets that rail isn't being used enough. Most of our ticket prices are far too high.

Everything I posted depends on rail travel being cheap as well as good, as it is for so many of our successful competitors.

Thats done by subsidies, and the benefits of the much better services pay back in numerous ways, particularly economic growth. End result is we all become better off with the subsidies covered.
.

Yeh, so the 90% who don't use rail pay for the 10% that do, so they can buy cheap tickets, read, charge their iphones have wifi while someones drives them to work, while i pedal. i can see who benefits from the better service. Don't see how that results in economic growth, except in the rail travellers pocket.

 

[oldgroaner]

For folk supporting nationalisation...
If a private company cant make an item profitably what makes you think government can do so?

And
If neither can produce it at a profit why is it being made?

When its made at a loss its a service to the country. If we decide the cost is worth paying, well fine. But dont kid yourselves that nationalising anything can turn a loss into a profit. It does no such thing, it just puts the cost up.
As a nation we did it for years in Steel industry, as at time it was thought to be strategically important to be able to make steel.
Yes, the rail system is in complete disarray, petsonally cant think of a worse person than Corbyn to take charge. He cant run labour party, let alone a rail network.

Without Steel and aluminium we are unable to eefend ourselves in time of war,unless you fancy a longbow and arrows with flint tips.
If you can't see the implications of this, I assure you Putin will.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yeh, so the 90% who don't use rail pay for the 10% that do, so they can buy cheap tickets, read, charge their iphones have wifi while someones drives them to work, while i pedal. i can see who benefits from the better service. Don't see how that results in economic growth, except in the rail travellers pocket.

You are going to need a bigger battery on your Ebike to travel very far ,and frankly pretty soon environmental considerations will reduce car traffic (including E cars) in preference to mass transport systems.
If for instance the Government brought in a Tax that made mass travel on the railways and buses free to use how many people would ditch their cars?

 

[Zlatan]

There are some things which are not profitable in themselves but essential for the survival of communities . In Ireland Water, Electricity and later harvesting of peat or turf as a fuel. State enterprise has a value, but one needs to distinguish between real strategic goals and mere clientism. In some cases the State needs to set up the infrastructure and to give credibility to an endeavour.. case in point Fire services, private security regulation authority, blood transfusion service. They may or may not generate profits but they make society work.

Totally agreed, I mentioned in earlier post its our duty to help pay for certain things. However, IMO, transport, production of steel and coal are not on that list. They should be run under premise of profit and loss.
If a service between 2 destinations is not profitable, it means insufficient are willing or wanting to travel between them. In your example of Spanish trains, why should some Spanish tax payer subsidise your pleasant journey?
And nationalisation is against EU policy??!!
There are no objecive reasons why nationalising our rail network will bring about any improvements. Infact, the threat of such is probably putting investors off.

 

[Danidl]

Yeh, so the 90% who don't use rail pay for the 10% that do, so they can buy cheap tickets, read, charge their iphones have wifi while someones drives them to work, while i pedal. i can see who benefits from the better service. Don't see how that results in economic growth, except in the rail travellers pocket.

You don't see... Well no surprise there. As flecc indicated previously, a good rail service can bring vast quantities of goods ,great distances for low cost. Now Ireland is too small and does not have the population density, but England has. The spine of England and Scotland does provide the necessary distance .

 

[boyabouttown]

For freight yes

 

[oldgroaner]

For freight yes

Which was in fact the purpose for which railways were invented.

 

[flecc]

Yeh, so the 90% who don't use rail pay for the 10% that do, so they can buy cheap tickets, read, charge their iphones have wifi while someones drives them to work, while i pedal. i can see who benefits from the better service. Don't see how that results in economic growth, except in the rail travellers pocket.

Strange how it works for all the other countries, often far more successful than us.

It's the investment that drives the economic growth.

Or we don't invest and continue with what is probably Europe's worst and certainly most expensive and inadequate train service.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Strange how it works for all the other countries, often far more successful than us.

It's the investment that drives the economic growth.

Or we don't invest and continue with what is probably Europe's worst and certainly most expensive and inadequate train service.
.

Agreed, it needs massive investment, like our roads do, and our schools, and our police, and our hospitals... All gone down hill since 1972...