Brexit, for once some facts.

[50Hertz]

A second referendum tramples all over democracy. Just because you didn't like the result doesn't mean anything. Unless of course you don't believe in democracy.

It really is as simple as that.

Fingers, I don’t think a second referendum has anything to do with whether you believe in democracy or not. The information upon which the original voting decision was based, has changed.

Put it this way. You are on an aeroplane with 100 passengers. The passengers are asked to vote if they would like to be flown to paradise. 52 vote to be flown to paradise, 48 are sceptical. As you start to taxi, the plane veers off the taxiway, twice. It’s then discovered that the man at the controls isn’t even a pilot, he’s a circus clown. As if that wasn’t enough, serious doubts now start to arise over the destination, it’s looking likely that it isn’t paradise.

Do you expect the 48 to sit back and accept the original vote? You can expect the 48 to fight like hell to overturn the original vote and get off the plane before the lunatic at the controls takes you into a smoking hole in the ground. That’s not un-democratic, it’s being sensible, so don’t keep on playing the democracy card, it’s starting to take on a similar odour to the race card.

 

[Fingers]

What on Earth leads you to believe that nonsense, by your logic you should never have been offered the SECOND referendum but mistakenly according to you, you were!
Unless of course you don't believe in democracy.
It really is as simple as that.

And that is without the fact that the result was criminally rigged!

I’m struggling to understand your logic. Slow down and try again.

I’m sure it makes sense in your mind but you have to make it so other people can understand it or the whole thing becomes pointless.

 

[Fingers]

Fingers, I don’t think a second referendum has anything to do with belief in democracy. The information upon which the original voting decision was based, has changed.

Put it this way. You are on an aeroplane with 100 passengers. The passengers are asked to vote if they would like to be flown to paradise. 52 vote to be flown to paradise, 48 are sceptical. As you star to taxi, the plane veers of the taxiway, twice. It’s then discovered that the man at the controls isn’t even a pilot. As if that wasn’t enough, serious doubts now start to over the destination, it’s looking likely that it isn’t paradise.

Do you expect the 48 to sit back and accept the original vote? Expect the 48 to fight like hell to overturn the vote and get off the plane before the lunatic at the controls takes you into a smoking hole in the ground.

I think you’re being a little bit melodramatic.

Of course situations change. But by your logic we would need to vote every day. Or would you just have a weekly vote?

 

[Nev]

Rory Stewart has admitted smoking opium In Iran.....Oh dear..

Of the leadership contenders he is by far the best of a bad bunch. Lucky for Labour that he has absolutely no hope of being chosen by the No Deal wanting membership of the Tory Party even if he did make it to the last two.

 

[daveboy]

Fingers, I don’t think a second referendum has anything to do with belief in democracy. The information upon which the original voting decision was based, has changed.

Put it this way. You are on an aeroplane with 100 passengers. The passengers are asked to vote if they would like to be flown to paradise. 52 vote to be flown to paradise, 48 are sceptical. As you star to taxi, the plane veers of the taxiway, twice. It’s then discovered that the man at the controls isn’t even a pilot. As if that wasn’t enough, serious doubts now start to over the destination, it’s looking likely that it isn’t paradise.

Do you expect the 48 to sit back and accept the original vote? Expect the 48 to fight like hell to overturn the vote and get off the plane before the lunatic at the controls takes you into a smoking hole in the ground.

So you are comparing leaving the EU to getting killed in a plane crash?
Flipping eck, I thought I was being harsh comparing it to beans on toast.

 

[Nev]

I quite like the ideas in this piece by Owen Jones, what to the rest of you think?

Labour needs a reboot – and it could start with bringing back Ed Miliband | Owen Jones

Backing a referendum and shaking up the shadow cabinet would help, says columnist Owen Jones

www.theguardian.com

 

[50Hertz]

So you are comparing leaving the EU to getting killed in a plane crash?

Metaphorically

 

[flecc]

Rory Stewart has admitted smoking opium In Iran.....Oh dear..

That was known very long ago. Rory has walked extensively through the Middle and Far East, much of the time in national costumes which were more suitable in the circumstances than western clothes. As part of fitting in and learning as much as possible about the peoples he's taken part in their customs, including some drug use.

It's for reasons like this that I'd prefer him to any other candidate for PM, someone with real experience in the real world.
.

 

[flecc]

No, you are confused. We’ve already had the democratic decision.

We had a vote on it and everything.

No I'm not at all confused. We had the vote which had a result. The result was acted upon but failed by hitting a brick wall and is now stuck.

So rather like when travelling and getting lost, time to ask for directions. Alternatively carry on wandering around in circles getting nowhere as we've been doing for the last three years.

Why are you so frightened of a democratic decision. If it was right to ask the people in 2016, it's just as right to ask now the process is stuck
.

 

[Danidl]

A soft Brexit is like me wanting Indian food, the wife wanting Chinese and we end up having beans on toast.

Would that be mung beans on Naand bread?.

 

[flecc]

so you won't be surprised if a campaign to rejoin after brexit succeeds or Scotland leaves the UK at IndyRef2 next year or 2021 then?
if so, then you should support leave and rejoin, Scotland leave and rejoin too.
That means leave first.

No, what I posted was about the referendum, change only having effect in fairly marginal situations since there are many factors at play.

The Scottish Brexit referendum voter was far from marginal for example, 62/38, so the change factor alone would be unlikely to overturn that.
.

 

[Danidl]

I think you’re being a little bit melodramatic.

Of course situations change. But by your logic we would need to vote every day. Or would you just have a weekly vote?

When the situation changes, I reserve my right to change my position. Now what is a material change? IF the change is major,then why not revise your position.

 

[flecc]

it hasn't hit anything. Parliament remains undecided after 3 years or haggling.

No, it's hit the buffers, though duffers might be more appropriate.

Parliament has gone beyond undecided, they've said we leave but also no to the deal and no to No Deal.

That is stasis, a deadlock decision, colloquially hitting the buffers.

Time to go back to the public, which could be by GE as you've said.
.

 

[flecc]

A soft Brexit is like me wanting Indian food, the wife wanting Chinese and we end up having beans on toast.

Curried, Chinese style.
.

 

[flecc]

We will be more likely to successfully breed racing Unicorns

Good idea, if successful they would be a fantastic export.
.

 

[flecc]

Fingers, I don’t think a second referendum has anything to do with whether you believe in democracy or not. The information upon which the original voting decision was based, has changed.

Put it this way. You are on an aeroplane with 100 passengers. The passengers are asked to vote if they would like to be flown to paradise. 52 vote to be flown to paradise, 48 are sceptical. As you start to taxi, the plane veers off the taxiway, twice. It’s then discovered that the man at the controls isn’t even a pilot, he’s a circus clown. As if that wasn’t enough, serious doubts now start to arise over the destination, it’s looking likely that it isn’t paradise.

Do you expect the 48 to sit back and accept the original vote? You can expect the 48 to fight like hell to overturn the original vote and get off the plane before the lunatic at the controls takes you into a smoking hole in the ground. That’s not un-democratic, it’s being sensible, so don’t keep on playing the democracy card, it’s starting to take on a similar odour to the race card.

Excellent post and a perfect metaphor for the situation.
.

 

[oyster]

Rory Stewart has admitted smoking opium In Iran.....Oh dear..

Which is the biggest problem the smoking, the opium, or Iran?

Whereas some other candidates would brazenly lie and claim to have taken crack cocaine in Pimlico if they thought it would get them more votes.

 

[Fingers]

When the situation changes, I reserve my right to change my position. Now what is a material change? IF the change is major,then why not revise your position.

Your concern as a foreigner over our local matters is touching but nothing has changed.

We haven’t left.

 

[Woosh]

No, it's hit the buffers, though duffers might be more appropriate.

Parliament has gone beyond undecided, they've said we leave but also no to the deal and no to No Deal.

That is stasis, a deadlock decision, colloquially hitting the buffers.

Time to go back to the public, which could be by GE as you've said.
.

the problem is the arithmetic of our parliament. No deal was taken off the table with just one vote. Even so, there is no majority at the moment among MPs for any brexit.
The answer is a new parliamentary arithmetic, with a fresh GE. People now know much better who they want to represent them on the subject of brexit.
I don't like JC's politics and unlikely to vote for him but I agree with many of his policies.

 

[gray198]

How can you possibly class Nicola Sturgeon of being guilty of "antics in Westminster".
She is not an MP and could not vote on giving an EU referendum. She has been consistent in her support for Scotland remaining part of the EU. The referendum she is interested in has nothing to do with EU membership.

You perhaps suppose that we live in a democratic country, but despite the 1707 Act of Union creating a union of equals, the enormous population difference between England and Scotland brings about a permanent democratic deficit for Scotland.

No, it's hit the buffers, though duffers might be more appropriate.

Parliament has gone beyond undecided, they've said we leave but also no to the deal and no to No Deal.

That is stasis, a deadlock decision, colloquially hitting the buffers.

Time to go back to the public, which could be by GE as you've said.
.

in other words give up because it is a bit difficult. What happens if we vote the same way again ? It will still be difficult