Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

How could any real Labour person sit down with a Tory?

you haven't read their statement. They have a lot more in common within the group than with those they used to sit next to at PMQs.

https://theindependent.group/

We believe:

• Ours is a great country of which people are rightly proud, where the first duty of government must be to defend its people and do whatever it takes to safeguard Britain’s national security.

• Britain works best as a diverse, mixed social market economy, in which well-regulated private enterprise can reward aspiration and drive economic progress and where government has the responsibility to ensure the sound stewardship of taxpayer’s money and a stable, fair and balanced economy.

• A strong economy means we can invest in our public services. We believe the collective provision of public services and the NHS can be delivered through government action, improving health and educational life chances, protecting the public, safeguarding the vulnerable, ensuring dignity at every stage of life and placing individuals at the heart of decision-making.

• The people of this country have the ability to create fairer, more prosperous communities for present and future generations. We believe that this creativity is best realised in a society which fosters individual freedom and supports all families.

• The barriers of poverty, prejudice and discrimination facing individuals should be removed and advancement occur on the basis of merit, with inequalities reduced through the extension of opportunity, giving individuals the skills and means to open new doors and fulfil their ambitions.

• Individuals are capable of taking responsibility if opportunities are offered to them, everybody can and should make a contribution to society and that contribution should be recognised. Paid work should be secure and pay should be fair.

• Our free media, the rule of law, and our open, tolerant and respectful democratic society should be cherished and renewed.

• We believe that our parliamentary democracy in which our elected representatives deliberate, decide and provide leadership, held accountable by their whole electorate is the best system of representing the views of the British people.

• In order to face the challenges and opportunities presented by globalisation, migration and technological advances, we believe the multilateral, international rules-based order must be strengthened and reformed. We believe in maintaining strong alliances with our closest European and international allies on trade, regulation, defence, security and counter-terrorism

• As part of the global community we have a responsibility to future generations to protect our environment, safeguard the planet, plan development sustainably and to act on the urgency of climate change.

• Power should be devolved to the most appropriate level, trusting and involving local communities. More powers and representation should be given to local government to act in the best interests of their communities.

 

[Zlatan]

I, d assume most already know there have been developments in Begum case. Its now appears she does not have dual Citizenship, Bangladesh insists she does not have theirs, as such UK can not resind her UK passport/citizenship..???

 

[Danidl]

I, d assume most already know there have been developments in Begum case. Its now appears she does not have dual Citizenship, Bangladesh insists she does not have theirs, as such UK can not resind her UK passport/citizenship..???

That is what I had picked up last night and posted. Of course all right thinking people made the typical complaints

Now is this a piece of misdirection theatre while the clock ticks down towards the crash out?

 

[Wicky]

A stop gap until Meghan pops the next high maintenance sproglet...

 

[Woosh]

comment about the Independent Group of MPs:

http://theconversation.com/the-independent-group-this-is-a-huge-statement-against-brexit-tribalism-that-could-really-change-british-politics-112170

Breaking the duopoly
There are other huge statements being made in the formation of this group. It says in general – though again not explicitly – that the Labour-Conservative duopoly is no longer working. It says that the nation is paralysed by Brexit and needs massive reform. Again, the IG’s creation is the first step.

It is also a huge statement to the hard Brexiteers in general – and particularly to the ERG and the no-dealers. With the defection of the three Conservatives, and the potential of more, Theresa May is losing her outright majority in the House of Commons. If she does lose it, she is ever closer to either a general election or to losing a motion that calls for a delay to the Brexit process, or worse, a motion for a second referendum.

The ERG must be acutely aware of this: more Tory defections, the growth of an IG that may garner such a significant number of votes in any election that it could hold significant, pro-Remain sway in any new parliament, means a level of turmoil in the Commons that is a threat to Brexit, full stop.

And to Leavers more broadly, extreme or otherwise, the implicit message of the creation of the IG is as clear as can be: this is a response to a Brexit process that has gone disastrously wrong, bungled by the government and the opposition with equal ineptitude. Whether they state it openly or not, the IG would not exist without this Brexit disaster, and Leavers must know that eventually, this will be a force for either Remain, or for the very least, the softest Brexit of all.

In this sense, we shouldn’t be too worried at this stage about the exact policy details of what this group wants – nor should we dismiss them as irrelevant because they will not give us that detail yet. Rather, we should view this through the lens of direct action, as an act of prefiguration: the act of creating the group will hopefully prefigure the way forward out of this Brexit farrago, however that way will eventually to be constructed.

 

[50Hertz]

Whilst I quite like the idea of this breakaway group of MPs who have declared themselves independent, I think there is some justification in calling for them to stand down as MPs and fight a by-election. After all, most of them are calling for a second referendum on the basis that things have changed since the first one, people have more clarity and more information is available. Well, couldn’t the same be said for them? At the time they were voted into parliament, people thought they were voting Conservative or Labour and for the associated manifestos. Like the first referendum and Brexit, things have changed, these defecting MPs no longer represent what people voted for.

In the above circumstances, wouldn’t it give their cause more credibility if they re-stood for election on the basis of what they now represent. If they are so sure that it is a second referendum that people want, they will be returned by a landslide. What is there to be afraid of?

I do support them, but at the moment there is a whiff of hypocrisy about them which I am sure will be exploited and probably with justification. They can lay that to rest by re-standing.

 

[Woosh]

Whilst I quite like the idea of this breakaway group of MPs who have declared themselves independent, I think there is some justification in calling for them to stand down as MPs and fight a by-election.

The point is both TM and JC are unfit to run this great country and there is no other way to push them out of the top job and calling for a second referendum does not go against the last manifestos of conservatives and labour.
the independent group is a logical place for disaffected MPs of all parties to sit while they wait to be invited to rejoin their original parties at a later date. Note that they are not a party.

 

[50Hertz]

Calling for a second referendum does not go against the last manifestos of conservatives and labour.

I agree with what you say up to this point. Don’t get me wrong, I support what they are doing and the idea of a second referendum. A second referendum is such a decisive and contentious issue that the process has to be whiter than white, no margin for claims of unfairness or a stitch up. Take the Broxtowe constituency for example, a leave voting area. How do they now feel about their MP? Stitched up? If she went back to her constituents and sought their support it would give so much more credibility to what they do.

I hope we see another tranche of MPs move over today.

 

[Woosh]

How do they now feel about their MP? Stitched up?

those who voted leave could certainly feel that way. The rest may feel that she did the right thing.
Not many people are comfortable with the way the ERG and JC run the country.

Broxtowe result 2017:

Conservative: 25,983
Labour: 25,120

There is a good probability that Soubry will retain the seat as independent if Labour tactically vote for her.

 

[50Hertz]

those who voted leave could certainly feel that way. The rest may feel that she did the right thing.
Not many people are comfortable with the way the ERG and JC run the country.

So potentially the majority of the Broxtowe constituents feel betrayed and let down by their MP. That’s ok is it? You would endorse that as being a good way to take people with you on your ambition?

I think it’s that sort of attitude which has been Remain’s major downfall all along. People kick back against that and it’s likely to be why a Leave vote prevailed. I think people are desperate for a bit of transparency and honesty, and I think a by-election would do a lot of good.

 

[oldgroaner]

Oh what a web we weave when first we practice to deceive
That line pretty much sums up the motive of the leave campaign.
This has led to a complete breakdown of the Parliamentary process, and I suspect coalition governments are going to be the name of the game from now on, which in a way is a good thing, and in another chaotic.
It really is about time parties were only formed on a temporary basis anyway. The present ones are "owned" by anyone with the money to pay for them.
IMHO of course

 

[Woosh]

So potentially the majority of the Broxtowe constituents feel betrayed and let down by their MP. That’s ok is it? You would endorse that as being a good way to take people with you on your ambition?

I think it’s that sort of attitude which has been Remain’s major downfall all along. People kick back against that and it’s likely to be why a Leave vote prevailed. I think people are desperate for a bit of transparency and honesty, and I think a by-election would do a lot of good.

it's not the majority of people in Broxtowe who voted for Soubry. 26,000 did out of about 80,000.
She is still their same MP for all intent and purpose except on the subject of no deal brexit, still runs surgery for everyday's issues.
Those feeling betrayed are really the hard brexiters, maybe 2000-3000, who want out 3 days after the vote.

 

[Woosh]

People kick back against that and it’s likely to be why a Leave vote prevailed.

I thought that Dominic Cummings (played by Benedict Cumberbatch) won the referendum!
He who devised the motivation to about 3 million voters who normally wouldn't be ***ed to go out to vote.

 

[Danidl]

those who voted leave could certainly feel that way. The rest may feel that she did the right thing.
Not many people are comfortable with the way the ERG and JC run the country.

Broxtowe result 2017:

Conservative: 25,983
Labour: 25,120

There is a good probability that Soubry will retain the seat as independent if Labour tactically vote for her.

The party system is the perversion of the democratic system. In the UK and obviously the USA,where this binary divide is equally prevelent,there is no point in voting even if you are part of a sizable minority. Those figures quoted above ..a mere 800 votes ensures that the voices of 25000 are silenced.
An electorate selects a person to represent them . It is the character of that person which matters,and the ideals they espouse. The party to which they belong should be aligned with these ideals. If that person then choose s to leave that party, the breach of contract is not with the people,but with the party. No there should be no bye election when a sworn deputy leaves their party.
If the UK operated multi seat constituencies,under a PR ,you would have parliament which more closely reflected the views of the electorate. Eg in the case of say a 3 seat one,centred around Broxtowe,it would probably have been 2 Cons,and 1 Lab or maybe 1 Con, 1Lab, 1 ind.

 

[oldgroaner]

The party system is the perversion of the democratic system. In the UK and obviously the USA,where this binary divide is equally prevelent,there is no point in voting even if you are part of a sizable minority. Those figures quoted above ..a mere 800 votes ensures that the voices of 25000 are silenced.
An electorate selects a person to represent them . It is the character of that person which matters,and the ideals they espouse. The party to which they belong should be aligned with these ideals. If that person then choose s to leave that party, the breach of contract is not with the people,but with the party. No there should be no bye election when a sworn deputy leaves their party.
If the UK operated multi seat constituencies,under a PR ,you would have parliament which more closely reflected the views of the electorate. Eg in the case of say a 3 seat one,centred around Broxtowe,it would probably have been 2 Cons,and 1 Lab or maybe 1 Con, 1Lab, 1 ind.

As you pointed out the party system has made nonsense of the Democratic principle.
For a truly democratic system all elected Mp's should be part of the actual governing body .
The trick of course is to design a system where that principle could be made to operate!

 

[50Hertz]

it's not the majority of people in Broxtowe who voted for Soubry. 26,000 did out of about 80,000.

Erm, out of about 54,000. For reasons known only to yourself, you are counting the non voters as Soubry supporters. It’s exactly that sort of manipulation that discredits an argument.

I’d like to see us remaining in the EU, but the above example indicates exactly why it will be an uphill battle.

 

[Woosh]

Erm, out of about 54,000.

the 54,000 are those who participated in the vote. The total number of elligible to vote is much higher.
Soubry is MP to the population, 94,971 people.
About 80,000 are elligible to vote. In the same way that Dominic Cummings motivated the previously non voting voters, Soubry may motivate a similar percentage because she took a stand against the extremists in her party.

 

[Woosh]

An electorate selects a person to represent them . It is the character of that person which matters,and the ideals they espouse. The party to which they belong should be aligned with these ideals. If that person then choose s to leave that party, the breach of contract is not with the people,but with the party. No there should be no bye election when a sworn deputy leaves their party.

that is a bit too simplified.
brexit divides political parties but political parties are much more than just brexit.
What caused the formation of the independent group of MPs is the current exceptional circumstance.
They are refugees of their own party. They find themselves in such awful situation that they can't do their job properly.
I wish to see this group to become permanent and participate in future coalition governments.
Normally, the ERG is not important but in this context, they threaten the jobs of hundreds of thousands and the future of millions. On the Labour side, 80% Labour MPs do not want JC to be the next PM.

 

[Fingers]

The party system is the perversion of the democratic system. In the UK and obviously the USA,where this binary divide is equally prevelent,there is no point in voting even if you are part of a sizable minority. Those figures quoted above ..a mere 800 votes ensures that the voices of 25000 are silenced.
An electorate selects a person to represent them . It is the character of that person which matters,and the ideals they espouse. The party to which they belong should be aligned with these ideals. If that person then choose s to leave that party, the breach of contract is not with the people,but with the party. No there should be no bye election when a sworn deputy leaves their party.
If the UK operated multi seat constituencies,under a PR ,you would have parliament which more closely reflected the views of the electorate. Eg in the case of say a 3 seat one,centred around Broxtowe,it would probably have been 2 Cons,and 1 Lab or maybe 1 Con, 1Lab, 1 ind.

Well no. The whole point of these people is they want a 'peoples' vote.

They should run a 'peoples' by election. Their hypocrisy reeks and most people can get more than a whiff of this.

Labour and conservative spent money on their campaigns. Party members surrendered their time to knock on doors for them. They had a contract with the very voters who voted for them. It's called a manifesto.

If these people truly were honourable then the only option is another vote.

Or is it one rule for them and another for the rest of us?

Sounds like what an MP would say.

 

[Woosh]

Labour and conservative spent money on their campaigns. Party members surrendered their time to knock on doors for them. They had a contract with the very voters who voted for them. It's called a manifesto.

If these people truly were honourable then the only option is another vote.

Or is it one rule for them and another for the rest of us?

we may have fresh GE soon anyway.

However, in reply to that question, this is what Soubry says:

“I haven’t changed. My values haven’t changed. The thing that has changed is the Conservative Party.”

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098525982816985089