Brexit, for once some facts.

[anotherkiwi]

Under our caring, socially minded EU loan companies are still allowed to advertise at prime time (last night 8.30 ish pm) loans with 1238% interest rates. Thought some EU law had banned loan sharking..???

Sigh, one more time... The EU publishes directives, sovereign national governments pass them into law. Or not... Oh damn I forgot! the UK government isn't sovereign, yet! But you are trying hard to get that back aren't you?

Loan shark advertising is a UK issue. No loan shark advertising on French TV and no more on Spanish TV which used to have advertising for payday loans.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Fair point Danid.
However, the logistics for your solution are almost impossible.
The recharge time is as salient as the range, as you correctly alluded to,its probably more important. Under your scheme the big problemwould be the number of batteries required their distribution, their ownership, their storage and their impact on the environment. You would need treble the number of batteries to vehicles. Imagine the storage issues on motorway service areas. I dont think it could work and thats before we examine the range of batteries required. (,eg a Leaf versus a a Lexus)
IMHO battery exchange is a none starter.
I suspect running our present cars on hydrogen is much more feasible but the prpblem is nobody actually knows.
We all have theoretical solutions. Reality will be different. Its the unknown the idustry cant cope with.

These posts are too interesting to be stuck in a brexit thread so I made another one:

Electric cars, motorbikes and boats

 

[tommie]

Battery cells as we know them will soon be a thing of the past ..

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/superdielectrics-supercapacitor-electric-car-battery

In the 1970s, Dr Donald Highgate found a way to make contact lenses more comfortable. With colleagues at the University of Surrey, he developed a transparent, flexible polymer that held water like a sponge.

Now, the same technology has spawned a new supercapacitor material that could accelerate the adoption of electric cars, and solve one of the biggest problems facing renewables.

Instead of storing energy in chemical form like a battery, supercapacitors hold it in an electrical field, like static collecting on a balloon. In 2011, Tesla's Elon Musk predicted that it would be supercapacitors, not batteries, that would power future vehicles.

They promise faster charging times, and don't rely on expensive materials such as lithium and cobalt, says Dr Sam Cooper from the Dyson School of Design Engineering. They are also more durable. "Supercapacitors have a very long cycle life," he explains. "You can fill and empty them a huge number of times."

The problem has always been a lack of energy density. The best available supercapacitors hold just five per cent of the energy per kilogram of a lithium ion battery. A fleet of supercapacitor-powered electric buses in Shanghai illustrates the point. Although they can charge in less than 30 seconds while dropping off passengers, they need to do so every few stops. But that could be about to change.

Superdielectrics Ltd has developed a supercapacitor material that can store "remarkable amounts of electricity, far beyond what we've seen before," according to its CEO Jim Heathcote. It's cheap to produce, uses no rare elements, and because it's mostly water, it can't catch on fire like traditional batteries. The discovery happened almost by accident, says Highgate, who is now director of research at the company.


also....
Alternative to traditional batteries moves a step closer to reality after exciting progress in supercapacitor technology

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-02-alternative-traditional-batteries-closer-reality.html#jCp

 

[anotherkiwi]

Battery cells as we know them will soon be a thing of the past ..

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/superdielectrics-supercapacitor-electric-car-battery

In the 1970s, Dr Donald Highgate found a way to make contact lenses more comfortable. With colleagues at the University of Surrey, he developed a transparent, flexible polymer that held water like a sponge.

Now, the same technology has spawned a new supercapacitor material that could accelerate the adoption of electric cars, and solve one of the biggest problems facing renewables.

Instead of storing energy in chemical form like a battery, supercapacitors hold it in an electrical field, like static collecting on a balloon. In 2011, Tesla's Elon Musk predicted that it would be supercapacitors, not batteries, that would power future vehicles.

They promise faster charging times, and don't rely on expensive materials such as lithium and cobalt, says Dr Sam Cooper from the Dyson School of Design Engineering. They are also more durable. "Supercapacitors have a very long cycle life," he explains. "You can fill and empty them a huge number of times."

The problem has always been a lack of energy density. The best available supercapacitors hold just five per cent of the energy per kilogram of a lithium ion battery. A fleet of supercapacitor-powered electric buses in Shanghai illustrates the point. Although they can charge in less than 30 seconds while dropping off passengers, they need to do so every few stops. But that could be about to change.

Superdielectrics Ltd has developed a supercapacitor material that can store "remarkable amounts of electricity, far beyond what we've seen before," according to its CEO Jim Heathcote. It's cheap to produce, uses no rare elements, and because it's mostly water, it can't catch on fire like traditional batteries. The discovery happened almost by accident, says Highgate, who is now director of research at the company.


also....
Alternative to traditional batteries moves a step closer to reality after exciting progress in supercapacitor technology

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-02-alternative-traditional-batteries-closer-reality.html#jCp

Please stay on topic!

 

[tommie]

Please stay on topic!

NO

Brexit has become the same old same old....there are a lot of more interesting and refreshing diversions and side issues

 

[Zlatan]

Sigh, one more time... The EU publishes directives, sovereign national governments pass them into law. Or not... Oh damn I forgot! the UK government isn't sovereign, yet! But you are trying hard to get that back aren't you?

Loan shark advertising is a UK issue. No loan shark advertising on French TV and no more on Spanish TV which used to have advertising for payday loans.

Oh, I forgot everything EU does is advisory. Silly me.

 

[Woosh]

One thing is certain, Honda's statement makes no sense.

it makes more sense if you add to it what is meant and not said. Earlier in the week, there was this row about UK/Japan trade deal when Hunt and Fox asked the Japanese to hurry up*. Well, they hurry up alright, except that they divest their UK assets.

*The letter said: “We are committed to speed and flexibility and hope that Japan is too.”

 

[Woosh]

Read what they said, “it has nothing to do with Brexit” Honda’s words, not mine. What those words mean is that it has nothing to do with Brexit. I can’t break it down any more simply for you.

you don't have to. It has nothing to do with brexit, Honda just want out of UK after brexit, the timing is purely coincidental.

 

[Woosh]

What Brexit does mean though is we can decide to favour South Korean cars. Indian manufacturers etc. We can pivot our reliance on Japan.

we export 80% of our cars, 54% (800,000 cars a year) go the EU.
Put yourself in the place of Japanese car companies. Would you want 54% to 80% of your production hit by no deal brexit row? They may be covered in the implementation period but beyond that, there is no longer the attraction.

 

[anotherkiwi]

it makes more sense if you add to it what is meant and not said. Earlier in the week, there was this row about UK/Japan trade deal when Hunt and Fox asked the Japanese to hurry up*. Well, they hurry up alright, except that they divest their UK assets.

*The letter said: “We are committed to speed and flexibility and hope that Japan is too.”

Well that is showing a deep understanding of how the Asian mind works isn't it? Did I read that the Japanese almost cancelled a meeting because they thought that was rude?

 

[flecc]

Even with our current technology, we could have 5 minute Energy fills ,if the implementation was to replace the battery pack ,by jacking up the car and sliding one in or out..

That's been tried and failed though. Renault who are a market leader in e-cars, made the slot in cars for a scheme tried in Israel and Denmark. The US company BetterPlace that tried it filed for bankruptcy in 2013.

That wasn't solely caused by technical difficulties, but there are many problems with such a scheme.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

you don't have to. It has nothing to do with brexit, Honda just want out of UK after brexit, the timing is purely coincidental.

Honda don't need the UK plant any more Japan has a trade deal with the EU. Must cost less to ship cars from Japan than to maintain a production plant in the UK.

 

[flecc]

It wasn’t Brexit it was Thatcherism that caused this. You can’t rely on foreign owned companies.

Agreed.

Honda will be making nothing in the EU.

Don't bank on it, I see the likes of Honda returning, but to the mainland EU. Three reasons:

Once the market settles it will make sense to avoid the costs of shipping every car half way round the world.

The EU is the world's largest single market for them.

The EU will continue to have good reasons to subsidise them to come in, jobs and income.
.

 

[Fingers]

we export 80% of our cars, 54% (800,000 cars a year) go the EU.
Put yourself in the place of Japanese car companies. Would you want 54% to 80% of your production hit by no deal brexit row? They may be covered in the implementation period but beyond that, there is no longer the attraction.

Yeah it's not good. But then again being held hostage to an organisation isn't either.

Thatcher sold the dream to the Japanese that we could export the cars to the EU mainland.

We still can. It will just have to be structured differently.

The people didn't want the EU. The politicians did. Change can be good the politicians always say. Until its not the change they want.

Too much is at stake not to make this work. It will work. Its just been a terrible start to the start

 

[Woosh]

Yeah it's not good. But then again being held hostage to an organisation isn't either.

why? does anyone hold you hostage with a gun?
brexit is just a phenomenon while the UK and the EU are getting divorced.
there is no need to leave the SM and CU.

 

[flecc]

Fair point Danid.
However, the logistics for your solution are almost impossible.
The recharge time is as salient as the range, as you correctly alluded to,its probably more important. Under your scheme the big problemwould be the number of batteries required their distribution, their ownership, their storage and their impact on the environment. You would need treble the number of batteries to vehicles. Imagine the storage issues on motorway service areas. I dont think it could work and thats before we examine the range of batteries required. (,eg a Leaf versus a a Lexus)
IMHO battery exchange is a none starter.
I suspect running our present cars on hydrogen is much more feasible but the prpblem is nobody actually knows.
We all have theoretical solutions. Reality will be different. Its the unknown the idustry cant cope with.

Fully agreed.
.

 

[Fingers]

Agreed.



Don't bank on it, I see the likes of Honda returning, but to the mainland EU. Three reasons:

Once the market settles it will make sense to avoid the costs of shipping every car half way round the world.

The EU is the world's largest single market for them.

The EU will continue to have good reasons to subsidise them to come in, jobs and income.
.

We can offer better terms

End of the day we can offer zero tax to them if they guarantee jobs.

It's a bit grubby but it's true.

 

[Fingers]

why? does anyone hold you hostage with a gun?
brexit is just a phenomenon while the UK and the EU are getting divorced.
there is no need to leave the SM and CU.

It's the implication. You leave us we **** you.

It's all a bit gangster

 

[Woosh]

End of the day we can offer zero tax to them if they guarantee jobs.

It's a bit grubby but it's true.

if we offer zero tax to them, we just as well get zero tax in return, that's the basis of a customs union.

 

[Zlatan]

Answered Danidl on other thread but basically a battery exchange system will never work on a country wide scale for two reasons.
A)The sheer number of batteries required and resultant volume taken up. (batteries in storage are still ageing)
B)Historically buyers have always demanded a range of sizes, qualities, prices etc. (pedelecs cant even settle on one battery type, connection etc) How many Lexus against Leaf batteries would be stored...
Problems combined would create a logistic nightmare.