Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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My point is that a mechanism has been found to create a situation whereby an EU country and a non-EU country CAN share a land border without the type of hard border arrangement being threatened in Ireland. That might be by way of treaty / agreement / understanding or whatever else, but the inescapable fact is that IT IS POSSIBLE to do it.
You literally cannot make this stuff can you.
I find it amusing tbh but the lack of self awareness on here is spellbinding.
Poor little fingers (are you Donald Trump?)
How about you cut back on the pathetic attempts of bullying and clean up your language a little?
This self delusion continues apace.
1. For some obcure reason.. perhaps geography, there are no major international shipping ports in Switzerland. ,So the volume of product is restricted. UK has a few major ports ,so the prospects of flooding the EU with substandardand non compliant goods from third party countries is real.
2. The desire to have no permanent sited customs posts straddling 5 of the 6 NI county boundaries was a RoI demand, shared in fairness with virtually all the people of NI . Since the people of NI have no one to talk for them ,the RoI have had to assume that role. ...that is the origin of the so called Backstop.
3. The RoI suceeded very early in the Brexit process of convincing by reason,not intimidation,not fear,that a permanent sited customs posts would be a bad idea. The EU treated these concerns with respect,and made it one of their red lines. So the EU stance is Customs Union or Backstop. The EU team actually visited the border counties affected spoke with people and informed their own views. Any UK vists subsequently were more of PR excercises.
4. The UK had not even considered NI as part of their model,and only the results of the GE in the UK ,forced it to rethink. There is a major body of opinion in the UK which views RoI as similar to outer Wales. NI only has a look in because of the pivotal role of the DUP,in maintaining Westminster votes.
5. It was the UK negotiation team, which sought to include mainland UK within a backstop,as a method of appeasement for the DUP. A decision the EU was happy to accept. Of course RoI have no objection to this either.
Even were the EU council minded to amend or remove the entire Backstop, a position ,I doubt would happen, it would not be passed by the necessary majority in th EU Parliament.
If the EU negotiators council offered to remove the Backstop from mainland UK, and were to amend the Draft Deal ,that would most likely be ratified by EU parliament.
If the UK agreed a permanent Customs Union ,then any reference to a Backstop would be irrelevant.
If none of the above happen,then it is a border in Calais, and Newry. Because the UK will not have signed off on the Deal and neither will the EU parliament.
So no Ireland is not piggy in the middle. ..We have made our stance clear.. We stand by the Union. ,In what then becomes an utter volte face , The RoI become Unionists and Loyalists to thr Union, wheras the DUP ,and their supporters become the dissenters, and the UK secessionists.
I'm not surer what you are asking for. If you are asking for a fact regarding post 45898 which you made here it is:
You said: " I don't do personal insults"
and then you immediately followed that up with:
"So the sad little man who has been using those "tactics" on this thread will have to find a better way to convince us he has a serious argument - maybe he could try a little intelligence? Or maybe that is beyond his means?"
I thought it was quite amusing because you said you didn't do something (Insult) and then in the next paragraph, did exactly what you said you didn't do (make insults).
That's why I said: "Doh" It's what Homer Simpson would have said if he had made a mistake such as yours.
I'm always happy to help if you need anything else explaining. Anyway, we had better get back on topic before we get our knuckles wrapped!
I think that fingers is a sad little person - for me that is a fact. If you doubt that he is then please re-read some of his posts in this thread. He is certainly beyond holding an intelligent argument on brexit.
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INSULT ALERT !!!!
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OMG its AK. FFS
I'm afraid this is at the core of the problem, the lack of recognition of the EU's Four Pillars, the fundamental Four Freedoms. At the heart of the EU sit four key principles: the free movement of goods, services, capital and persons.
Persons have to be included because they are at the core of the other three.
There's nothing novel in this, they are aligned with the four democratic principles outlined by Roosevelt long ago that he said all peoples of the world should enjoy.
Freedom of movement is an absolute to have any relationship with the EU and that is why it's essential for membership or for being in EFTA.
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Not with the UK's intransigence on the four freedoms. The problem is and always has been entirely caused by us.
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I think the back stop is just a diversion. The EU would love to take Mays deal as is but they have to play the whole charade so when they seemingly back down to something that isn't broken it seems like we have won a massive deal.
We haven't. We are paying 39bn for the privilege of the status quo. But yay lets cheer on our zombie as she gurns away saying we gave fritz a bloody nose.
Its a farce.
You make some good points and there is stuff in there that I wasn't aware of, so thank you for that.
If we remove all of the reasons and excuses as to why not and focus on what we really want to achieve, a Non EU country sharing a land border with an EU country without the need for the hard physical barriers of yesteryear, it can be done. I solution can be found because one already exists. The present solution for Switzerland may not transfer straight across to Ireland, but the concept works and it is acceptable within the EU, so let's start working on something similar, which is what I think was proposed by the UK some time ago.
the issue of border in NI is not about people but about regulatory regime and movement of goods.
The DUP is right to reject the backstop.
If applied, the backstop will create a barrier to trade between the UK and NI.
So really, the thing at the heart of this, the thing which threatens to derail the whole process and threatens stability and peace in Ireland, is the free movement of people. The EU insist on free movement, the UK insist they don't want free movement of people. All other aspects can be solved in some way and we know that because it has been done.
I think we know that free movement of people will continue regardless because the UK needs certain skills and we can't seal our borders anyway. So what is the difficulty?
It can only happen the day we drop our demand to control free movement. I'm sure you know as well as I do that after the referendum result it's impossible to drop that insistence, the Leavers won't stand for it.
Therefore what you say is possible simply isn't.
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What did you expect, that I let a person who doesn't know me call me a "racist" and a "twat" without reacting? Don't fear, my skin is as thick as fingers is...**************************
INSULT ALERT !!!!
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OMG its AK. FFS
You are not correct. People in Ireland will continue to have free movement, deal or no deal.
Come on, of course that isn't sufficient for such a fundamental, only dependant on whether we need skills.
We have to sign up to unconditional freedom of movement, and as I've just pointed out, the referendum outcome makes that impossible.
We are in a trap of our own making.
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if the backstop is to stop a hard border to protect the single market, what exactly are the EU going to do if there is no deal???. The British have said they will not erect a hard border, so what will they do???. My guess is that as if by some miracle, they will find a workable option that satisfies everybody. The other point I'd like to make is about the food shortages. ie lettuces tomatoes etc rotting in the lorries because of port delays. I cannot see that the producers of these goods are going to be best pleased when British supermarkets stop ordering them. As a country we can manage perfectly well without them, and we ( shock horror ) grow our own. I don't buy them anyway out of season. Tasteless pap