Brexit, for once some facts.

tommie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Mar 13, 2013
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Co. Down, N. Ireland, U.K.
Natives are getting restless in Eire - is the penny finally dropping?!

IREXIT: Keep your chin up Brexiteers, stand up for freedom outside of EU

IREXIT Freedom to Prosper is a patriotic party that believes in our national democracy.

We assert that the best people to look after Irish affairs are the Irish people themselves. Irish people spent centuries fighting to be an independent and self-governing nation.
IREXIT Freedom to Prosper cherish these ideals and will put Irish people in control of their own destiny by restoring our national democracy and leaving the EU. As it stands Ireland is
subject to laws initiated by an unelected and unaccountable European Commission. MEPs from other countries get to vote and decide on EU laws which are then imposed on Ireland. A bit like the 64 billion euro bank debt imposed on the Irish people in 2011. So much for EU solidarity!

With so many key decisions made in Brussels it reduces our Parliament to a glorified county council. It infantilises our own democratic institutions and effectively reduces Ireland to being a minor EU rule-taker.


IREXIT Freedom to Prosper will put control back into the hands of Irish people by restoring an accountable and effective national democracy.

Leaving the EU’s Customs Union and then being free to make free trade deals around the world including with the UK is the only sure fire way to avoid a hard border in Ireland.
Please just look at what has come out in the last few weeks about the EU wishing to impose a hard border in Ireland. Let’s be clear, no party in Ireland or Britain wants a hard border in Ireland. But the EU wishes to use the issue as a stick to punish Britain and if possible keep the North of Ireland – and if need by the whole UK in the EU Customs Union.

Barnier in May said Ireland’s membership of the EU Customs Union means “customs controls”. Then Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney was then caught on mic telling another minister “We’ll be the government that reintroduced a physical border on the island of Ireland.”

This was quickly followed by a German MP, Gunther Krichbaum chairman of the Bundestag committee on European Affairs admitting when pressed on BBC Radio Foyle “It will be a hard border of the European Union”. Juncker’s Spokesman on January 22nd said in case of a No Deal Brexit, there would be a hard border in Ireland.

To top it off, Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar then said a hard border might entail look-out posts and soldiers on the border.

But given the British don’t want a hard border, just whose troops would that be then? An EU Army? Looks like it. I would not like to be them when they set up shop on the border with South Armagh.

At the end of the day, the border issue has been confected by the EU to keep the UK in the Customs Union. The European Parliament even commissioned a report in 2017, Smart Border 2.0 outlining how smart technology can ensure a frictionless border on the island of Ireland. If the political will is there, the technology exists to make a frictionless border happen.

The Irish government was bilaterally discussing this idea with Britain when Enda Kenny was in power but these discussions were stopped immediately by EU fanatic, Leo Varadkar when he came into power.


Barnier made clear that he wished to make the deal with the UK so bad that they would choose to remain. In a way the EU negotiations were not genuine. The EU was only thinking of giving the UK a punishment beating, and set an example for other countries in Europe.

An increasing number of people in Ireland realise that the EU is not our friend. These people in Brussels helped rob 200 billion Euro worth of fish out of our waters since we joined the Common Market. They laboured the Irish taxpayer with 64 billion Euro Franco-German bank debt…and soon they will be coming after our vital corporate tax regime. The longer we still in the EU, the colder it gets.

In the case of a WTO Brexit, the EU will seek to impose a hard border in Ireland. So much for solidarity with Ireland as Leo Varadkar has bogged his arm in on the backstop, to watch it backfire badly.
In the case of a WTO or No Deal Brexit there are only two ways to prevent a hard border on our island. The first is Ireland leaves the EU’s Customs Union and is free to make a trade deal with Britain and other countries around the globe. This has the benefit of Ireland once again becoming a sovereign independent state free of EU supremacy.

The second, is the use of smart technology facilitating a frictionless border. However this has the downside of keeping Ireland tied inside the EU. And for that ‘privilege’ we will continue to pay into the EU budget and allow the EU to impose many laws upon us, many against our interests, and made by people we did not elect. Not a great deal.

IREXIT Freedom to Prosper supports the Brexiteers who want a sovereign independent country free of EU control and diktat. The EU has shown its nasty vindictive side in these ‘negotiations’ but please keep your chin up. Stand for freedom, set an example for other countries in Europe.

A number of years from now, hopefully Ireland will also be outside the EU and we can rebuild an adult relationship as mature states once again upholding and respecting our national freedom and democracy.
 
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50Hertz

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 2, 2019
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Come on, of course that isn't sufficient for such a fundamental, only dependant on whether we need skills.

We have to sign up to unconditional freedom of movement, and as I've just pointed out, the referendum outcome makes that impossible.

We are in a trap of our own making.
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It seems a bit stupid when a solution that achieves quite a lot is within touching distance. I'm not that bothered about free movement, whether we retain it or get rid of it. The EU will probably scrap it within a decade anyway if people are that concerned.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,333
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Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
if the backstop is to stop a hard border to protect the single market, what exactly are the EU going to do if there is no deal???. The British have said they will not erect a hard border, so what will they do???. My guess is that as if by some miracle, they will find a workable option that satisfies everybody. The other point I'd like to make is about the food shortages. ie lettuces tomatoes etc rotting in the lorries because of port delays. I cannot see that the producers of these goods are going to be best pleased when British supermarkets stop ordering them. As a country we can manage perfectly well without them, and we ( shock horror ) grow our own. I don't buy them anyway out of season. Tasteless pap
physically? not much.
regulatory checks and a customs border will be added to any trade between NI and the ROI.
 

50Hertz

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 2, 2019
2,199
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if the backstop is to stop a hard border to protect the single market, what exactly are the EU going to do if there is no deal???. The British have said they will not erect a hard border, so what will they do???.
They will do nothing. They will find a solution. They can find a solution now. It's pathetic.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,157
30,573
if the backstop is to stop a hard border to protect the single market, what exactly are the EU going to do if there is no deal???. The British have said they will not erect a hard border, so what will they do???. My guess is that as if by some miracle, they will find a workable option that satisfies everybody.
Either that or the EU will operate a hard border.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,157
30,573
The EU will probably scrap it within a decade anyway if people are that concerned.
Why don't you accept the reality, this could never happen.

The Four Freedoms are the pillars on which the EU stands, a fundamental of the original Treaty of Rome. They will never change and both you and all others in the UK have to try to understand that.

Unless and until that understanding is reached, the UK and EU will never enjoy harmony.
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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Ireland
You make some good points and there is stuff in there that I wasn't aware of, so thank you for that.

If we remove all of the reasons and excuses as to why not and focus on what we really want to achieve, a Non EU country sharing a land border with an EU country without the need for the hard physical barriers of yesteryear, it can be done. I solution can be found because one already exists. The present solution for Switzerland may not transfer straight across to Ireland, but the concept works and it is acceptable within the EU, so let's start working on something similar, which is what I think was proposed by the UK some time ago.
Great.. you have got it!. The Backstop is and was intented to cover the interval between the exit date (nominally march 29) and when a mutually agreeable effective solution which did not involve permanent manned posts could be in place. It could by definition not be time limited,but could be defined in functional terms. So technological solutions of using computerised tracking ,drones ,aircraft etc would POTENTIALLY have served, after they existed,and had been proven to be effective,not speculated or suggestions of what might br used. At present no such system has been actually proposed, let alone tested or deployed.
Obviously the UK government has been unable to get that subtle message across,and the mass of UK MPs have chosen to see the Backstop as a barrier . It is part of the cycle of ignorance permeating all strata of UK society on this topic of Brexit.
I choose to watch the BBC yesterday to hear the debates and the votes. That it should be necessary for the BBC to remind viewers at this stage that the EU is not bound by debates or votes in Westminster is mind boggling.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,157
30,573
so all this talk of no hard border is just garbage and a big stick to beat the UK into a rubbish deal. The Irish leader is putting his country in a precarious position by being so obdurate
I've no idea, I only posted the obvious alternative without any view on it's suitability or practicability. That's for the parties involved.
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Fingers

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2016
3,373
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Great.. you have got it!. The Backstop is and was intented to cover the interval between the exit date (nominally march 29) and when a mutually agreeable effective solution which did not involve permanent manned posts could be in place. It could by definition not be time limited,but could be defined in functional terms. So technological solutions of using computerised tracking ,drones ,aircraft etc would POTENTIALLY have served, after they existed,and had been proven to be effective,not speculated or suggestions of what might br used. At present no such system has been actually proposed, let alone tested or deployed.
Obviously the UK government has been unable to get that subtle message across,and the mass of UK MPs have chosen to see the Backstop as a barrier . It is part of the cycle of ignorance permeating all strata of UK society on this topic of Brexit.
I choose to watch the BBC yesterday to hear the debates and the votes. That it should be necessary for the BBC to remind viewers at this stage that the EU is not bound by debates or votes in Westminster is mind boggling.

But what I think you don't get is where we are with the backstop.

What happens come 2 years down the line we say right, we want out. But then the French say fine but in order for us to release you we want access to to your fishing waters. Somehow we come to an agreement then we say want to be released from servitude again and Spain say ok but we want Gibraltar to be accepted as Spanish. And so it goes on. And on.

As I said I think this border issue is a sham. Willy waving by Ireland and threats from the EU.

We do not want a border hard or otherwise. Does Ireland?

It seems to me that the EU wants 39bn and Ireland wants to be seen, or at least their government does, as an important player in the EU when its no more important than Portugal. A fine country for sure but it really shouldn't keep prodding the wasps nest as we will leave without a deal, there will be no border and the EU gets no money.
 

jonathan.agnew

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 27, 2018
2,400
3,381
the issue of border in NI is not about people but about regulatory regime and movement of goods.
The DUP is right to reject the backstop.
If applied, the backstop will create a barrier to trade between the UK and NI.
h
If the dup's concern was primarily moved ement of goods, they should reject brexit, it is, to state the obvious the cause of a hard border, not the backstop. Apologies for stating the obvious, but if one does not there is a risk of trumpian newspeak in which everything becomes the eu's fault
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,333
16,856
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
They will do nothing. They will find a solution. They can find a solution now. It's pathetic.
whatever the solution, the DUP will reject any additional checks.
 
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50Hertz

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 2, 2019
2,199
2,403
Why don't you accept the reality, this could never happen.

The Four Freedoms are the pillars on which the EU stands, a fundamental of the original Treaty of Rome. They will never change and both you and all others in the UK have to try to understand that.

Unless and until that understanding is reached, the UK and EU will never enjoy harmony.
.
Nothing can "never happen". The unthinkable can and often does happen. As I say, I don't care one way or the other about the theoretical ideal of free movement of people. I have no concerns. However, It could be gone at the stroke of a pen given the correct environment, and the environment is shifting amongst the population of the wider EU. How quickly and the number of direction changes ahead is the only unknown.
 

jonathan.agnew

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 27, 2018
2,400
3,381
Nothing can "never happen". The unthinkable can and often does happen. As I say, I don't care one way or the other about the theoretical ideal of free movement of people. I have no concerns. However, It could be gone at the stroke of a pen given the correct environment, and the environment is shifting amongst the population of the wider EU. How quickly and the number of direction changes ahead is the only unknown.
That is such a platitude. In the spirit (of platitudes) the world is integrating, commercially, technologically, ito the www. Segregation is not likely to happen outside the steamy fantasies of brexit types
 
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