even if TM comes back next week with some concession, what stops the ERG and/or the DUP to say that it's not enough?
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Graham Stringer (Labour MP):
".... multinationals want to keep the EU just as it is. It’s not surprising as the deflationary Stability and Growth Pact – Thatcherism internationalised – has created a pool of unemployed and low-paid people, particularly in Southern Europe, desperate for work. These multinationals can manipulate the regulations and policies of the EU to their own ends. The EU is the multinational’s happy playground."
and..
"The EU referendum question was unconditional and unambiguous. Commitments were given on all sides that whatever the decision, it would be honoured. Prominent campaigner to overturn the decision, Chuka Umunna stated: “A majority of one is sufficient.” Alongside fellow Remainer Hilary Benn: “This is not for MPs to decide but you the electorate.”"
and..
"Both Chuka and Hilary have now changed their tune. They both make the seemingly sensible point that “nobody voted to make themselves poorer”. Of course they didn’t. Nor did they vote to make themselves richer, or anything else. They simply voted to Leave. "
and finally:
"The EU debate has exposed a shallowness in our democracy that many did not suspect. The Remain establishment cannot believe the hoi polloi did not accept their advice to remain in the EU, they assume these people must be stupid or too old to reason. It has always been an essential part of our democracy that all votes are equal and that the minority accepts the majority decision. Both these fundamentals are being challenged by the political establishment of left and right whose sense of entitlement has overtaken their sense of democracy.
Project Fear has continued apace, led by the Bank of England who predicted a recession and the loss of half a million jobs immediately after the referendum if we voted Out. Jobs increased and there was no recession. These people make Mystic Meg’s predictions look like accurate science. The EU has been the slowest growing economy on the planet (except for Antarctica), it is anti-democratic and job-destroying. If the EU referendum, the largest single vote in our history, is overturned, it will have irreparably damaged the world’s oldest parliamentary democracy and the multinationals will have won."
".... multinationals want to keep the EU just as it is. It’s not surprising as the deflationary Stability and Growth Pact – Thatcherism internationalised – has created a pool of unemployed and low-paid people, particularly in Southern Europe, desperate for work. These multinationals can manipulate the regulations and policies of the EU to their own ends. The EU is the multinational’s happy playground."
and..
"The EU referendum question was unconditional and unambiguous. Commitments were given on all sides that whatever the decision, it would be honoured. Prominent campaigner to overturn the decision, Chuka Umunna stated: “A majority of one is sufficient.” Alongside fellow Remainer Hilary Benn: “This is not for MPs to decide but you the electorate.”"
and..
"Both Chuka and Hilary have now changed their tune. They both make the seemingly sensible point that “nobody voted to make themselves poorer”. Of course they didn’t. Nor did they vote to make themselves richer, or anything else. They simply voted to Leave. "
and finally:
"The EU debate has exposed a shallowness in our democracy that many did not suspect. The Remain establishment cannot believe the hoi polloi did not accept their advice to remain in the EU, they assume these people must be stupid or too old to reason. It has always been an essential part of our democracy that all votes are equal and that the minority accepts the majority decision. Both these fundamentals are being challenged by the political establishment of left and right whose sense of entitlement has overtaken their sense of democracy.
Project Fear has continued apace, led by the Bank of England who predicted a recession and the loss of half a million jobs immediately after the referendum if we voted Out. Jobs increased and there was no recession. These people make Mystic Meg’s predictions look like accurate science. The EU has been the slowest growing economy on the planet (except for Antarctica), it is anti-democratic and job-destroying. If the EU referendum, the largest single vote in our history, is overturned, it will have irreparably damaged the world’s oldest parliamentary democracy and the multinationals will have won."
I think most of them are resigned to the end game now.
In two weeks time when the EU says nothing has changed she will change a tittle or two it will be voted down and much wailing and gnashing of teeth will prevail but ultimately it will still be 2300.
The EU will cede the backstop and we will get this stupid May deal. The worst of both worlds. What a farce.
The chance of TM obtaining any significant shift from the EU is slim, and I think you are right, she is likely to return with pretty much what she has now. Then what happens?
Poor old Ireland seems to be piggy in the middle in all of this, mainly due to the EU. Why if we leave the CU is a border so necessary? I travel between Italy and Switzerland very frequently and there is no noticeable border. I’ve never seen any vehicles being stopped, and very rarely seen any personnel. If there is a token officer there, they are usually smoking and looking bored stiff. Traffic just flows and you can’t tell that you have moved into or out of the EU. There might be a border on paper, but the physical reality is that it doesn’t exist. If the EU are so relaxed about the Swiss / EU border, why can’t they be consistent and apply the same policy for their Irish members? The answer I believe is that they are using the people of Ireland as a weapon to make leaving difficult for the UK. Very poor treatment of the Irish people by the EU.
As AK points out, the EU and the Swiss have a treaty, and in addition to that, 120 trade agreements with the EU negotiated over a 7 year period. We haven't even started the trade talks yet.
These are why the Swiss border is relaxed, the only realistic barrier is that the Swiss can't supply services to the EU, but of course they aren't physical entities for customs officers to examine.
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Absolutely! I predicted this as the likely outcome long ago, are you saying she won't succeed?
This is true
"“It is now clear that there is a route that can secure a substantial and sustainable majority in this House for leaving the EU with a deal.
As I said, and that deal will be May's deal with a bit of jiggerery pokery about the backstop.
This won't change the essential facts that the deal is Brino not Brexit and we are rule takers not rule makers.
Your side will conveniently forget the "Vassal state" claim they made as Brino is all they are likely to get.
Are you of the opinion May will actually get a deal that fits their requirements? after two full years of failing to?
Fear of Corbyn means their paymasters are pressuring them t hold their noses and vote essentially for Ma's deal with a few bells and whistles they can present as the victory it clearly is not
The EU is getting the deal it wants by giving the other side some small concession
Not sure why AK has to be so offensive, probably a kiwi trait...(, or twat)
Swiss are in single market and have been since 1972..hence little border control. Having said that Spain and France have also been in same since 1972 and I, ve spent hours at border checks at Jonquera/Perthus (Spanish French border). The border posts, checks, were stopped only a few years ago even tho both were in single market and had signed Schengan. Could never understand why we had to show passports and occasionally be searched. Posts are now closed.
Interesting stupid and typical comments from Momentum this morning.. The Labour "rebels" are traitors and sould be deselected, for representing views of their constituents..????
Blair telling us all MPs know best... Funniest most ironic thing he has ever said.
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So what you are saying is that it can be done. An EU country CAN have a land border with a non EU country and there DOES NOT need to be a physical hard border with checks. A precedent and solution has been set and it is one which works. Exactly what is required between Ireland and its neighbour. Thank you very much indeed for clearing that one up.
As far as your final sentence is concerned, I understand that the soreness you are feeling caused you to write it. It’s ok, let it all out.
You have probably heard this one before, but it’s a well known fact that there isn’t any such thing as a silly question, just silly people who mock those who do seek knowledge.
Thanks flecc. Yes indeed AK has kindly confirmed for us all that it is possible to construct an agreement removing the requirement for a hard border between an EU and a non EU country sharing a land border. Just like the Irish situation.
So if it can be done, so why are the EU threatening the Good Friday agreement?
Terrorism was an issue for many years due to ETA so their movements would have been a possible issue years ago. No longer now of course with the ETA threat removed.
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yes, it can easily be done, all it needs is for the UK to join EFTA like Switzerland.
As I've said, it takes years first before that can happen and requires our co-operation which we are not giving. The Swiss case is entirely different in that they worked co-operatively at every stage in the treaty and in the 120 trade agreements.
They have agreed to totally unrestricted freedom of movement and they've signed the Shengen treaty, both of which we refuse to do. That is why we cannot have the same for Ireland, our fault.
The Swiss did try years later to have free movement restricted but the EU told them bluntly that there was no chance while retaining their advantages so the Swiss had to concede.
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The question was a silly one, because even without spending 45 seconds to seek the answer on an EU web site or even Wikipedia that answer is as obvious as the wart on Mao's chin. I said nothing about the person asking the question.
1. I don't do personal insults
2. I don't use obscene language
3. I don't use bullying tactics to try and get a point across
So the sad little man who has been using those "tactics" on this thread will have to find a better way to convince us he has a serious argument - maybe he could try a little intelligence? Or maybe that is beyond his means?
1. I don't do personal insults
2. I don't use obscene language
3. I don't use bullying tactics to try and get a point across
So the sad little man who has been using those "tactics" on this thread will have to find a better way to convince us he has a serious argument - maybe he could try a little intelligence? Or maybe that is beyond his means?
As I understand it, a hard border’s primary function is to prevent the smuggling of goods from one zone to another. What does that have to do with the freedom of movement of people?
It would be in the UK’s interest to have the hard Irish border to prevent the free movement of people once we have left, but it seems like we are not bothered about that aspect in exchange for the greater good of not having a hard border.
I think there is a solution to the Irish situation based around checks away from the physical boundary of Northern and Southern Ireland. The U.K. have proposed this but the EU seem dead set against it.