Brexit, for once some facts.

[Fingers]

Totally agreed and if we really had a democracy parliament would either endorse May's deal or crash out. Let's face it over 80% of them are there with leave in their own parties manifestos. I, m not sure how constitutionally they can do any other. If they don't it makes a mockery of entire system.

I’m afraid that’s where we differ my friend.

I would take remain over Mays deal every time.

It really is that bad imo.. So I would hope Parliament to be as aware as I am over this and protect the country over a deal that completely screws us and possibly breaks us up. Despite the manifesto. But the real way out is no deal.

As it should have been from the start.

Start with nothing and build from that. None of her redline nonsense and capitulation before even started negotiations.

 

[flecc]

Arguing parties don't uphold their pledges is completely missing point.
Your voting Labour and now saying "Well they don't have to follow manifesto anyway" is wrong flecc.
Parties have a duty to try and achieve manifestos.
Anybody who voted for any Labour or Tory candidate can not now grumble when we crash out of EU.

I didn't argue any of this, it's all just your usual long rant about your own agenda and not in any way relevant to what I posted, which essentially was:

Voting for a party doesn't imply agreement with everything in their manifesto.

It certainly didn't for me at the last GE as I've already explained in exact detail, and in truth it probably very rarely does for anyone. Let's face it, most of the electorate always vote for their same party choice, regardless of what is in the manifesto. That's why it's said that only the minority of swing voters ever decide who wins GEs.
.

 

[Zlatan]

I’m afraid that’s where we differ my friend.

I would take remain over Mays deal every time.

It really is that bad imo.. So I would hope Parliament to be as aware as I am over this and protect the country over a deal that completely screws us and possibly breaks us up. Despite the manifesto. But the real way out is no deal.

As it should have been from the start.

Start with nothing and build from that. None of her redline nonsense and capitulation before even started negotiations.

I was really speaking of what they should be obliged to do... Tend to agree with you but can't really see how we can remain without a massive change. My bet would be on no deal at moment.. May's deal 2nd...Rrmain 3rd...but we, ll see.

 

[Zlatan]

I didn't argue any of this, it's all just your usual long rant about your own agenda and not in any way relevant to what I posted, which essentially was:

Voting for a party doesn't imply agreement with everything in their manifesto.

It certainly didn't for me at the last GE, and in truth it probably very rarely does for anyone.
.

That's the very bit I disagree with. Why even bother having or reading or writing a manifesto. Rather vote in hope I suppose. And I didn't say all of manifesto. Just the major over riding elements. Like leave or stay last time.

 

[Fingers]

I didn't argue any of this, it's all just your usual long rant about your own agenda and not in any way relevant to what I posted, which essentially was:

Voting for a party doesn't imply agreement with everything in their manifesto.

It certainly didn't for me at the last GE, and in truth it probably very rarely does for anyone.
.

He is right though flecc. You actively voted for Leave in the General election.

It was no secret.

I knew remainers who had voted Labour all their lives who voted green at the last election.

They had convictions.

 

[flecc]

That's the very bit I disagree with. Why even bother having or reading or writing a manifesto. Rather vote in hope I suppose. And I didn't say all of manifesto. Just the major over riding elements. Like leave or stay last time.

Then account for this. Most of the electorate always vote for their same party choice, regardless of what is in their manifesto. That's why it's commonly said that only the minority of swing voters ever decide who wins GEs.
.

 

[Fingers]

Then account for this. Most of the electorate always vote for their same party choice, regardless of what is in their manifesto. That's why it's commonly said that only the minority of swing voters ever decide who wins GEs.
.

Not quite.

It’s seats that’s change governments. So yes a swing nationally like we saw in 97 and Cameron’s second one makes it easier.

But normally it’s local issues. Like the unprecedented swing that happened in your own ward that is usual. Did you say it was a 10 thousand swing?

Especially when most agree that the two main parties are offering the same.

Leave.

 

[Woosh]

I was really speaking of what they should be obliged to do... Tend to agree with you but can't really see how we can remain without a massive change. My bet would be on no deal at moment.. May's deal 2nd...Rrmain 3rd...but we, ll see.

we may end up by cancelling brexit when the astronomical cost of brexit becomes more obvious.
Someone made on tonight's BBC2 NewsNight a hypothetical comparison of the cost so far in government paralysis since DC lost his bet.
Social care, universal credit and now the sign of economic stagnation begin to erode confidence after two and a half years of brexit inflation (8%) that many people wonder if the UK economy can survive brexit.
Civil servants do not much beside preparing for no deal brexit. Parliament has so much brexit related legislation to pass for years to come that it can't discuss anything else. Soon, people will be sick enough of the constant row about brexit that I would not be surprised that brexit will be abandoned by the next Corbyn government.

 

[flecc]

He is right though flecc. You actively voted for Leave in the General election.

No I didn't because I couldn't have, he's wrong since the referendum had already decided that so it wasn't a GE issue. As I've already told him, I voted for what was most important for me in the GE agendas, getting rid of the current MP and voting for two Labour manifesto items.
.

 

[tommie]

And when the EU does NOT come crawling?. What is your plan B?
The arrogance masked here is breathtaking,and a little bit of me is hoping you collectively will enjoy the hubris. I know ! It is uncharitable of me, but I am still only human.
You do appreciate that the 39 billion ,only covers the NI subvention from Westminster for 4 years?.

Dan, Dan, lets take you back a moment,

shortly after the Leave vote you`ll remember the Irish Gov and the DUP had a couple of meetings to try and come to some sort of arrangement that would be acceptable to both sides north and south and not cause any disruption to either community, it was conducted in a spirit of friendliness and much bonhomie, it was noted by both at the time they wanted a `sensible` brexit. It was an encouraging start.
That was all fine and well, until the gang from Brussels noticed something that would trip up the Brits and make it virtually impossible for them to leave - the Irish border!
They immediately got on the blower to Leo to hand out instructions and from that point on Leo morphed into Billy big B0ll0cks, he suddenly started instructing the british gov how it was going to be, the border will have to move into the Irish sea, british planes wouldnt be allowed to fly over ireland blah, blah, blah...he was now a mouthpiece for the EU, he became a World Statesman over night.... the boyfriend was most impressed...
However unfortunately for big B0ll0cks there was a glitch just around the corner,
The May deal and its irish backstop that the EU and irish were counting on to go through parliament will certainly be shot down in flames, and now there's this awful speculation of a `No Deal` being the No1 contender.
Shock, horror... panic stations for poor old Leo, they`re now running around like headless chickens buying up land around dublin and rosslare ports, employing squads of customs officers and would you believe it not a mention of a Border, or a backstop!!

So there we have it, if the No Deal scenario ever comes to pass the Irish gov have nobody else to blame but themselves for any `inconvenience` caused.

What makes sense is if the Irish leave the EU with us.
After all, they joined because we did and they didn't want disruption then.

 

[Danidl]

You’re the guy that said planes wouldn’t fly! You are really said that. Until it was pointed out even Russia and North Korea have permission to let their aircraft use EU airspace.

This is also the guy that said on quite a few occasions how he would enjoy it if we suffered utter destruction. Would serve us right etc.

Let’s get it right Dan. Your a perv, a voyeur. You’ve also got a chip on your shoulder that’s ten times the size of your schmeckle. You don’t live here but want us to fail. What’s all that about?

Admit. You get your jollies out of others misery and this is the biggest show in town now. You must be raw.

Can’t wait to see you slide away once the bunting goes up and Brexit is declared our greatest Victory since Waterloo.

Huzzzzah!

Let us deal with facts and perhaps less of your fantasies about my equipment. Be assured I share no fantasies about yours.
I never ever said that the planes would not fly. What I did say was that landing rights in Europe for British registered airlines would be refused UNLESS legislation was amended. Planes would be allowed to land in an emergency and overfly . But not to pick up passengers. . Which in the prospect of a no deal crash out was realistic. Transcontinental flights continually fly over disputed territories. A flight to Dubai, from Dublin will travel over Irish,English, French, German, Russian Egypt and Gulf states
And surprise surprise.. that is still the current situation. There are proposals to mitigate that. But at present they are still proposals. There were threats from some British persons that Ireland would be prevented flying over UK territories. Were that absurd situation to have arisen, the Shan ..wick .. standing for Shannon and Preswick air traffic control would have been halted.

No. I do not want either the UK to be punished, or the chaos which I am convinced will follow a crash out. I have family and relations in the UK.
There might well be bugles rooted and bunting on April's Fools day.

 

[Danidl]

Dan, Dan, lets take you back a moment,

shortly after the Leave vote you`ll remember the Irish Gov and the DUP had a couple of meetings to try and come to some sort of arrangement that would be acceptable to both sides north and south and not cause any disruption to either community, it was conducted in a spirit of friendliness and much bonhomie, it was noted by both at the time they wanted a `sensible` brexit. It was an encouraging start.
That was all fine and well, until the gang from Brussels noticed something that would trip up the Brits and make it virtually impossible for them to leave - the Irish border!
They immediately got on the blower to Leo to hand out instructions and from that point on Leo morphed into Billy big B0ll0cks, he suddenly started instructing the british gov how it was going to be, the border will have to move into the Irish sea, british planes wouldnt be allowed to fly over ireland blah, blah, blah...he was now a mouthpiece for the EU, he became a World Statesman over night.... the boyfriend was most impressed...
However unfortunately for big B0ll0cks there was a glitch just around the corner,
The May deal and its irish backstop that the EU and irish were counting on to go through parliament will certainly be shot down in flames, and now there's this awful speculation of a `No Deal` being the No1 contender.
Shock, horror... panic stations for poor old Leo, they`re now running around like headless chickens buying up land around dublin and rosslare ports, employing squads of customs officers and would you believe it not a mention of a Border, or a backstop!!

So there we have it, if the No Deal scenario ever comes to pass the Irish gov have nobody else to blame but themselves for any `inconvenience` caused.

What makes sense is if the Irish leave the EU with us.
After all, they joined because we did and they didn't want disruption then.

Talk about revisionism.
The first part is true enough. There were friendly talks at the initial stages. But make no mistake, the Irish Government were always adamant about the undesirable nature of any border . Any exploratory talks would have had that as a goal.Enda would have been a little more conciliatory in tone than Leo, but that is personality type not substance. It is also why I would have preferred that Simon would have got the top job. But it was never going to be otherwise.... the border problem is real. .
You have it about face. It is the Irish delegation who brought it to the attention of the EU not vice versa. . In fact the worry remains here that were "Hardy come to Hardy" , that the EU would not support the Irish position.

I can agree that if the Deal fails to be ratified by the UK, Ireland will blame no one but themselves and the HoC . But we are convinced that the level of "inconvenience" we will suffer with a UK Crashout will be no worse than a phony backstop.

None of this is Ireland's fault. It was and is a series of decisions by your HoC which has led to this situation. When are you going to take ownership of that?

Edit. Saturday 12.30 . just have been looking at Fintan O Tooles column.. . He must have been reading my posting. ,.our content is identical,except he includes quotations and dates.

 

[oldgroaner]

By the logic of a remainer. Leavers would say exactly the opposite. ie) Leave no deal would make 52 % ofl those that cared to vote happy.

Not enough when 60 % didn't or were not allowed to vote previously

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Guardian
"
Corbyn: Brexit would go ahead even if Labour won snap election
Exclusive: opposition leader says he would go to Brussels to secure better deal if he was PM"

Great isn't it? the UK, where 60% of the population a live under a dictatorship and the only 40% are unable to see they have been conned into imagining they have won something.
May will get here deal through

 

[Zlatan]

No I didn't because I couldn't have, he's wrong since the referendum had already decided that so it wasn't a GE issue. As I've already told him, I voted for what was most important for me in the GE agendas, getting rid of the current MP and voting for two Labour manifesto items.
.

Exactly , your personal battle, not the strategic war, which you ignored and hoped for best.
In fact you hoped for Corbyn to do the very opposite of that promised in his manifesto.
Its like voting for Corbyn and expecting him to lower taxes when he has promised to raise them.
I, m surprised at you with this flecc. You normally make coherent, logical arguments. This one is plain daft.

 

[Zlatan]

From the Guardian
"
Corbyn: Brexit would go ahead even if Labour won snap election
Exclusive: opposition leader says he would go to Brussels to secure better deal if he was PM"

Great isn't it? the UK, where 60% of the population a live under a dictatorship and the only 40% are unable to see they have been conned into imagining they have won something.
May will get here deal through

No, I think thousands vote without reading manifestos. Well millions in fact. He has said all along that's exactly what he would do. Why the surprise...???
And JC could negotiate a better deal? I wonder how? He won't get in anyway.

 

[anotherkiwi]

What currencies are the troll factories paying in these days, roubles or yuan?

 

[Zlatan]

What currencies are the troll factories paying in these days, roubles or yuan?

I, d guess New Zealand Dollar.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I, d guess New Zealand Dollar.

I haven't seen one of those since 1987. Does NZ have an agenda pushing for brexit these days? Don't read much news from there either.

 

[OxygenJames]

When do we ever get what we vote for? We live in hope and learn to be disappointed with the less than satisfactory outcomes.

The country voted to leave, advice to the government who hold the reins. May's Deal is all that is on offer, so it's accept that as good enough or forget it and remain members of the EU.

May's Deal means almost all the country will be dissatisfied.

Remaining will satisfy about a half of the country.

Logically the second is the best option.
.

Huh? What about the leave option? You know. WTA. Leave. According to your logic that will satisfy 52% of the population. It's what we voted for. To leave the EU. It's not rocket science. Plus May's deal is not all that is on offer. If nothing is agreed - we leave on WTA. And we'll do just fine.