Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

It's good to see in the news today that the British spy non-spy, Matthew Hedges, has been pardoned by the UAE.

I feel better now about the possibility of returning to education as a mature student and studying for a PhD, researching a foreign country's security strategy for my thesis. Obviously, I have made a note to ensure that any country I pick is one that receives arms shipments from the UK as that is an essential bargaining chip it seems if the hist hits the fan when I visit.

The Foreign Secretary seemed incredibly surprised at the news but it must have been down to his intervention on Hedges' part that brought about his release…..surely?

Tom

I'm sure this was carried through with the usual integrity that the UK is famous world wide for with an exchange of gifts without favour and with altruistic intent in both directions.
Nothing to see here move along (as usual)
It's just another welcome proof of "Strong and Stable" government policy

 

[Woosh]

Suggest those who think that the backstop will never be used should Google ‘Turkey Trap’ ‘Jeremy Hunt’

the backstop can still be restricted to NI only while the rest of the UK goes for a Canada deal. That's the consequence of respecting the GFA.
BJ or JC won't do any better with regard to NI.

 

[RobF]

But it isn't is it? as usual you make untrue statements
I realise you don't like reading anything that contradicts your programming,
What garbage are you referring to? the only garbage I can see is that which the leave campaign has made of the negotiations, and the harm and stress this mass stupidity that Brexit really is has caused in our own population playing on fear and prejudice.
The there's our borders
the people who are coming here aren't coming because this is a wonderful place, they are fleeing from areas where we have helped start wars!
And now the ones we really need to come have started going home, putting the NHS in jeapordy through understaffing.
The UK is in fact so wonderful a place that we end up with headlines like this
"
UN report blasts Britain's 'punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous' stance on poverty with dire warning over Brexit

Do you think you know better? this is how low the sort of thinking you subscribe to has brought our international reputation to.
And really you would be well advised to steer clear of any reference to this subject
"The UK, being such a dreadful place, should be like Ireland during the potato famine, de-population, people queuing to leave.
I suggest you follow this link and see how we failed the Irish
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml
And if you are wise never mention it again as a point scoring exercise
Rather than coming on here spouting nonsense ,you should look at your own conscience at the trouble you've been a party to causing with wrong headed ideas.

By the way I don't represent anyone but myself, can you say the same?

Just another of the literally thousands of rants you've made on this thread.

Your posts have been rendered meaningless by their volume.

Less is more, but you've lost that battle already.

I always thought you were quite a knowledgeable chap but clearly, your area of expertise is limited to bicycles.

View attachment 27892

I think you are just a hopeless case, I'm afraid.

Tom

Usual patronising from Remainers.

It was that attitude that cost you the referendum.

Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Don't you fellas ever learn?

 

[anotherkiwi]

...be glad to see the back of us.

That day will probably come...

 

[flecc]

Jeremy Hunt has pointed out that the open ended May backstop deal could lock us into negotiations for 30 years. Turkey has been negotiating with the EU since 1987 to try to achieve a free trade deal.

And Switzerland has been in trade deal talks with the EU for over 9 years now. That's still incomplete despite some 120 individual trade deals so far and still no access for their services, as important for them as they are for us.

I'm not confident I'll live to see the end of our leaving the EU stage 3 trade talks.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Just another of the literally thousands of rants you've made on this thread.

Your posts have been rendered meaningless by their volume.

Less is more, but you've lost that battle already.



Usual patronising from Remainers.

It was that attitude that cost you the referendum.

Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Don't you fellas ever learn?

What marks you out as a fool is the notion that somehow remain voters are time Travelers that patronised you before the referendum, somehow ensuring the leave victory?
Instead of posting this nonsense how about entering into the debate with an example of something positive in favour of brexit?
If you can you will be the first to manage to.
So we can deduce from your post that as soon as Boris and Gove told you you were being patronised you fell for their lies?
Tell me whose side of Gove on now?
They patronised you, didn't they [emoji41]
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[flecc]

Then there's our borders, if the UK is such a dump how is it we are fighting a seemingly limitless number of people wanting to live here, either legally or illegally?

The UK, being such a dreadful place, should be like Ireland during the potato famine, de-population, people queuing to leave.

But instead the reverse is true.

Why is that?

We're a softer touch, just like some others in the EU who are favoured by migrants, Germany and Scandinavian countries for example.

Obviously migrants avoid the countries who take a tougher line.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

And Switzerland has been in trade deal talks with the EU for over 9 years now. That's still incomplete despite some 120 individual trade deals so far and still no access for their services, as important for them as they are for us.

I'm not confident I'll live to see the end of our leaving the EU stage 3 trade talks.
.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/

5 years of negociation

 

[Woosh]

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/

5 years of negociation

being a 'soft touch', we can do a deal quicker than that.

 

[anotherkiwi]

being a 'soft touch', we can do a deal quicker than that.

That is the hype the brexit gang sold to the electors! Going to be a push over. Countries will be lining up at the door to do trade with us. etc...

Japan is going to be a push over: http://www.atimes.com/article/shadow-of-brexit-hangs-over-uk-japan-economic-relations/

 

[flecc]

being a 'soft touch', we can do a deal quicker than that.

Yes, we just proved it, lousy deals can be done quickly.

Worthwhile deals take rather longer though, years usually.
.

 

[oldtom]

Don't you fellas ever learn?

What's to learn 'RobF'? Are you suddenly about to reveal whatever it is you think those who voted to remain have missed with regard to the EU? Do you actually know something we don't after nearly 40,000 posts in this thread?

Please be my guest and explain the benefits of non-membership of the EU because I really can't see any.

Now, if I were a despicable racist, I'd probably want to prevent all foreigners entering the UK and maybe I'd even go as far as demanding the expulsion of all non-British people from the UK. Is that perhaps your line on 'Brexit', 'RobF'?

I'd have to be a pretty horrible human being to hold that kind of view but I am more civilised than that and I have enough up top to understand the advantages of EU membership and the economic benefits which that has provided for the UK since 1973. I'm also aware of the many legal, social, human-rights, safety and workplace benefits EU membership has provided.

I shall await your reasoned response 'RobF'.

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

Time for a fact injection methinks...

Britain’s fundamentals are in many respects worse than those of Italy, and a flight of capital from the UK might cause severe financial disruptions.

Britain’s debt burden is as large as that of Italy, the sick man of Europe and the subject of perpetual market worry about systemic risk.

Britain’s total debt-to-GDP ratio is higher than Italy’s, according to the Bank for International Settlements

and

and

But the critical difference between the two economies is the current account. Italy has a surplus of exports of goods and services amounting to almost 3% of GDP, while the UK has a deficit equal to 3.5% of GDP. A country in financial trouble that does not have to borrow from abroad can always lend money to itself; a country in financial trouble with a deficit has to persuade foreigners to keep lending to it.

...

Britain’s only real economic advantage is in financial services – banking, insurance, clearing, asset management and legal. A hard Brexit would force financial institutions to move operations out of London to Paris, Frankfurt or Dublin, destroying Britain’s most important source of revenues. Foreign money would likely flee the country, forcing Britain to raise interest rates sharply, with dire consequences for households in particular.

 

[oyster]

The Foreign Secretary seemed incredibly surprised at the news but it must have been down to his intervention on Hedges' part that brought about his release…..surely?

To be fair, at least he didn't entirely muck it up unlike certain previous Foreign Secretaries might well have done. Well, one of them.

 

[Danidl]

Mmm, so if the UK is such a waste of space why does the EU make it so difficult for us to leave?

You'd think they'd snatch our hands off, be glad to see the back of us.

Don't tell me, it's altruism, they have our best interests at heart.

Yeah, right.

Many of the arguments you are presenting here have been well aired before.
But for the sake of completeness let's review them.
The UK is not a waste of space,it is a pleasant land, filled with ,perhaps overpopulated, with good decent people. Even a decent people can get illusions of grandeur, and i believe that is what occured in the year before the BREXIt referendum. The difference between the votes was so little, that it was essentially a 50% 50% split.
Despite that, or maybe because ,one faction then decided to push their luck,and in a sense of hubris, argued for the simplest of all solutions., Without caring or realising that 50 years of linkages existed. British business,interests,..as opposed to certain financial cabals,were slow to react,and only of late have picked up on the devestating consequences.
The antics at Cabinet level were at first a source of amusement to other EU countries,but soon it became apparent that it was frankly embarrassing.. just like when you finally realise that your slightly eccentric uncle is actually a roaring alcoholic. In that scenario,and seeing that Mrs May was at least trying, the EU gave a deal,which in their terms was more generous then they had intended.
Now the EU does not want to see the back of England,and it is not just althrusim. There is enlightened self interest at play here. England is a player in Europe,and has been for 1500 years, England leaving presents a huge hole in Western security, it reduces the overall market ,not in itself a big deal. It reduces the level of academic expertise.
But these advantages of having UK are contingent on UK being a full participating member not as a competitor. The social cohesion of the EU is more important than facilitating the UK at any cost.
So basically NO. The EU will see last Sunday as a very sad day. It is a lose lose situation.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Mmm, so if the UK is such a waste of space why does the EU make it so difficult for us to leave?

You'd think they'd snatch our hands off, be glad to see the back of us.

Don't tell me, it's altruism, they have our best interests at heart.

Yeah, right.

The EU are worried that we may become a low tax/low regulated/low paid Singaporean style tax haven that could wreak havoc with their controlled single market. Actually I should be supporting JRM and IDS,the idea of 10% corporation tax,no minimum wage,employing labour a la Amazon,no inheritance tax,no employer contribution NIC should be attractive to an employer,but I like to think I have some social conscience and dont really need the money....bet O'Leary (Ryanair) would be tempted to move Ryanair to the UK,especially if he could buy Boeings or Comacs(chinese copy of an Airbus A320/Boeing 737) without duty.
We could become the bicycle smuggling centre of Europe,with no import tariffs on bikes,including e-bikes.
But the normal working bloke/gal would be hit by 55% Provident Fund contributions to pay for Health and Social care....that wasnt mentioned in the referendum or by JRM since and Workplace pensions is the perfect vehicle to collect it.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Time for a fact injection methinks...

Britain’s fundamentals are in many respects worse than those of Italy, and a flight of capital from the UK might cause severe financial disruptions.

Britain’s debt burden is as large as that of Italy, the sick man of Europe and the subject of perpetual market worry about systemic risk.

Britain’s total debt-to-GDP ratio is higher than Italy’s, according to the Bank for International Settlements

and

and

But the critical difference between the two economies is the current account. Italy has a surplus of exports of goods and services amounting to almost 3% of GDP, while the UK has a deficit equal to 3.5% of GDP. A country in financial trouble that does not have to borrow from abroad can always lend money to itself; a country in financial trouble with a deficit has to persuade foreigners to keep lending to it.

...

Britain’s only real economic advantage is in financial services – banking, insurance, clearing, asset management and legal. A hard Brexit would force financial institutions to move operations out of London to Paris, Frankfurt or Dublin, destroying Britain’s most important source of revenues. Foreign money would likely flee the country, forcing Britain to raise interest rates sharply, with dire consequences for households in particular.

Indeed, and I'd add to all that the strength of personal saving in Italy, that alone making the country financially viable and safe.

We match that in the UK with the opposite, huge personal debt, much of it on credit cards of various types.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The one thing I think we can all agree on is that May's deal was the EU's deal,the day that Davis turned up at a meeting with no papers and the EU facing had a stack,said all.
We have been stitched up by the EU ,but it isnt their fault it is our fault,we entered into a divorce with a QC on the EU side and Baldrick on our side...actually thats not fair at least Baldrick had a plan !!!
We have to accept that May never had a chance and her own party never supported her. The guy who invented Article 50 (a Brit) was on the TV today,when asked where we go from here,he said we would Remain in the EU.
For me,we have made such a mess of these negotiations that I am horrified of what deals Fox will achieve with the USA or China,such a shame we are voting away the 60 plus deals that the EU have already achieved.
Trouble is,how much credibility has this stupid referendum cost us on the world stage,our government has shown themselves to be utterly incompetent...its a shame we are a great trading nation ,very innovative and skilful,our government has let us down badly.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes, we just proved it, lousy deals can be done quickly.

Worthwhile deals take rather longer though, years usually.
.

What is the only form of negotiation guaranteed to gain a speedy agreement

Surrender​

Even leave voters should have realised that as that is exactly what May has done.

 

[oldgroaner]

The one thing I think we can all agree on is that May's deal was the EU's deal,the day that Davis turned up at a meeting with no papers and the EU facing had a stack,said all.
We have been stitched up by the EU ,but it isnt their fault it is our fault,we entered into a divorce with a QC on the EU side and Baldrick on our side...actually thats not fair at least Baldrick had a plan !!!
We have to accept that May never had a chance and her own party never supported her. The guy who invented Article 50 (a Brit) was on the TV today,when asked where we go from here,he said we would Remain in the EU.
For me,we have made such a mess of these negotiations that I am horrified of what deals Fox will achieve with the USA or China,such a shame we are voting away the 60 plus deals that the EU have already achieved.
Trouble is,how much credibility has this stupid referendum cost us on the world stage,our government has shown themselves to be utterly incompetent...its a shame we are a great trading nation ,very innovative and skilful,our government has let us down badly.
KudosDave

That isn't the worst thing by any means
The worst thing is that half the people that Voted in the referendum could be so easily conned by people so obviously liars and con men, that you would turn away as obviously villains if they came to your door to sell just about anything.

Our reputation abroad must be at the lowest in our entire history.
And that is really saying something!