Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

This, for me, sums up the disgraceful, vindictive campaign being waged by the New Labour pink tories and the Jewish branch of the tory Party against an honest, decent, socialist politician, the elected leader of the Labour Party:

View attachment 26330

Tom

This piece from Metro is interesting
"
‘Rather than a single, sudden trigger event causing the 2016 record total, the high number of recorded anti-Semitic incidents is probably due to the cumulative effect of a series of events and factors that, taken together, have created an atmosphere in which the number of incidents recorded by CST has remained high over a sustained period of time.’ These included, in 2016, allegations of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, a perceived increase in racism and xenophobia following the EU referendum and regular high-profile discussion of anti-Semitism, racism and hate crime, according to the study. It added: ‘These factors are likely to have contributed to more anti-Semitic incidents occurring, and to a greater level of reporting of those incidents to CST and the police.’ In 2016, anti-Semitic incidents were spread uniformly throughout most of the year, the report found. It said the most common single type of incident recorded invo
lved verbal abuse randomly directed at visibly Jewish people in public.


So in fact the Campaign against Corbyn has damaged relationships between the Public and Jewish community?
Most of which was in fact of a verbal nature.
What a surprise!
Perhaps the best advice would be
Give up the Witch Hunt, you are making matters worse for your own Community and being used by the Tory Party as a smoke screen.
The best way to get peace to return is to stop disturbing it, there are legal ways to reply to abuse and hyping it in the media works against you, as people are not impressed with what is going on in Palestine.

 

[Woosh]

unless someone is eating humble pie, the logical conclusion is: heads towards no deal and panic.

https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1029355469809348608

 

[gray198]

Indeed, but KudosDave was referring to to online selling to consumers, which includes large numbers of small scale businesses having no need to register. Something the likes of ebay and Amazon have made possible on such a scale.

A bit of a nightmare for HMRC, since trying to tackle VAT fraud among them could lead into so many unproductive investigations.
.

maybe when we leave the EU we can get rid of VAT and instead apply a sales tax which everyone pays. I think they do something like that in US. Prob much less bureaucracy

 

[oyster]

maybe when we leave the EU we can get rid of VAT and instead apply a sales tax which everyone pays. I think they do something like that in US. Prob much less bureaucracy

The complexities and uncertainties of sales tax as implemented in the USA rather suggest to me that retaining VAT is preferable.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Online traders within ebay and Amazon not charging VAT aren't always fraudulent though, quite a few are small time with under £85,000 a year sales, the VAT registration level.

And imports from the Channel Islands valued at less than £18 are VAT exempt.
.

I understand that,but there are a lot of traders who move 100,000 plus transactions per year....these are often offshoots of big chinese companies.
I also know that a lot of UK traders now look upon e-bay as a no risk crime,these traders are vat registered on their website and shop trading,they put just enough through to appear legal.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Many, many years ago I had a deep questioning of the whole of retail. I came up with the idea that for many products, customers could order directly from a manufacturer and it would be sent from the literal end of the line to the end user. No customer - no product.

It didn't happen then, but is it happening now?

Yes,out of the back door or side door of many asian manufacturers,mostly via Alibaba,E-bay or Amazon. These marketplaces are making a fortune out of this trade,10-15% commision.
What is happening is there are 2 tiers of market....the legals versus the illegals,the difference (and the profit) is normally about 20%,the vat rate. If the illegals had to charge vat they would make no profit.
I am surprised that the likes of Homebase have not complained more to HMRC.
It seems that HMRC have been told by the government to go soft on the likes of Amazon,I suspect that is because they are such a big and growing employer.
KudosDave

 

[gray198]

The complexities and uncertainties of sales tax as implemented in the USA rather suggest to me that retaining VAT is preferable.

you may be right but would it need to be complex in the uk. Just thinking that USA has many different states and jurisdictions etc. It should not be difficult to keep it simple.

 

[flecc]

maybe when we leave the EU we can get rid of VAT and instead apply a sales tax which everyone pays. I think they do something like that in US. Prob much less bureaucracy

US sales tax is primarily a local one, which suits their methods of government where the states each have considerable power.

Our structure needs national taxation, so without VAT it would be back to the old purchase tax system. Not one I ever liked since it had so many disadvantages.
.

 

[Woosh]

It seems that HMRC have been told by the government to go soft on the likes of Amazon,I suspect that is because they are such a big and growing employer.

we still have to operate under Single Market rules.
the EU has imposed the onus on the holiday booking websites (eg tripadvisor) insure against property owners going broke and criminals who place fake pictures of their properties. I reckon at some stage, the EU will put the same onus on platforms like ebay and amazon to enforce VAT accounting, ie, make them liable for VAT reclaim cases if the customers got cheated on VAT. Secondly, the EU can request reporting of sales made by traders on those platforms and fine the platforms if their traders fail to register for VAT after clocking up enough sales.

 

[oldtom]

New claims have surfaced about Jeremy Corbyn associating with terrorists!



Tom

 

[gray198]

US sales tax is primarily a local one, which suits their methods of government where the states each have considerable power.

Our structure needs national taxation, so without VAT it would be back to the old purchase tax system. Not one I ever liked since it had so many disadvantages.
.

sorry Flecc don't quite understand why a national tax on sales needs to be complicated. I vaguely remember purchase tax, but surely that's all that vat is. One tax to cover all UK and also online sellers with no exceptions. Should not be too complicated, but then again we are talking about politicians and civil servants here. They can complicate the most simple things

 

[oyster]

Our structure needs national taxation,

But what does "national" mean? With Scotland already have some income tax powers, it doesn't take much to anticipate the possibility of different rates in the four constituent countries.

Can also foresee a rerun of the cake or biscuit re Jaffa cake...

 

[oyster]

One tax to cover all UK and also online sellers with no exceptions.

Already a problem. Are we to be taxed on selling secondhand household and personal goods on ebay? Or newsagents' windows?

Is the tax applied to P&P?

Same rate for a Rolex as a box of end-of-life veg being picked up by the least well-off from Lidl?

How do you handle services?

How do you handle a combination of goods and services such as having brake pads replaced?

Does it cover things like television licences? And road tax? You said no exceptions and both are, effectively, sold online.

What steps to enable overseas visitors to buy "tax free"?

Is tanning to be rated the same as physiotherapy?

Will companies and other organisations such as the NHS have to pay sales tax on everything they buy and not have any means of recovering any of it?

 

[oldgroaner]

you may be right but would it need to be complex in the uk. Just thinking that USA has many different states and jurisdictions etc. It should not be difficult to keep it simple.

We have never managed to make anything "simple" in our entire history, have we?

From the Guardian
"
Anti-tax lobbyists accuse VAT of being a double tax because consumers pay for goods and services from already taxed income. VAT proponents claim it is a progressive tax: individuals who pay the most VAT spend the most on purchases. This line of reasoning is truer of a tax system such as the UK's, where a relatively broad set of exemptions means that poorer people pay a lower proportion of their income in VAT.

Zero-rated VAT applies in the UK on most food (with the paradoxical exception of snacks), medicines, books and some forms of transport. Because providers can claim back VAT on what it costs to produce such items, the government effectively offers subsidies to these industries.

Former UK exemptions that have been sacrificed on the altar of government need for revenue include takeaway food and home improvements. In 1993, the UK government introduced a reduced 5% rate for domestic and charity-consumed fuel and power. Since then, the reduced rate has been extended to non-discretionary or government-favoured purchases such as women's sanitary items, children's car seats, energy-saving materials, contraceptives, and quit-smoking products. Some types of home improvement are also lower VAT rated.

Forget Purchase Tax, it was a nightmare

 

[flecc]

sorry Flecc don't quite understand why a national tax on sales needs to be complicated. I vaguely remember purchase tax, but surely that's all that vat is. One tax to cover all UK and also online sellers with no exceptions. Should not be too complicated, but then again we are talking about politicians and civil servants here. They can complicate the most simple things

Your last sentence is what I meant.

There's a huge difference between VAT and Purchase Tax. VAT is charged at all stages on goods and services but credited in intermediate stages, so there's a cumulative effect.

Purchase tax is only on goods and only applied at the level of final sale to the consumer, and it was always charged at different levels for various products. The two main levels were 33.33% on most taxed products and 66.66% on those considered luxuries, so had far bigger effect on retail prices than VAT which is lower but spread over far more things.

Purchase tax contained many evils, not least what was called "Design by Chancellor". This is where a Chancellor of the Exchequer's decision on what to tax and how influenced companies to design for lowest tax rather than for best product. I don't want to see that return for obvious reasons.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

The usual way to control a population's attitude is to give them something to be afraid of and if this provides a much desired boost to Military Spending, that is an additional advantage.
First we had Trump announcing the formation of a United States Space Force, and precisely when there was a need for justification of this attempt to start a new arms race for a profit we have this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45194333
Mystery Russian satellite's behaviour raises alarm in US.
Here's some good advice for the USA
Watch events without using them as propaganda, prepare in secret if there is a genuine concern, then and only then if there is a need for action, respond in the least damaging way

In other words Bloody grow up!
Stop this childish Macho posturing.

 

[oyster]

Your last sentence is what I meant.

There's a huge difference between VAT and Purchase Tax. VAT is charged at all stages on goods and services but credited in intermediate stages, so there's a cumulative effect.

Purchase tax is only on goods and only applied at the level of final sale to the consumer, and it was always charged at different levels for various products. The two main levels were 33.33% on most taxed products and 66.66% on those considered luxuries, so had far bigger effect on retail prices than VAT which is lower but spread over far more things.

Purchase tax contained many evils, not least what was called "Design by Chancellor". This is where a Chancellor of the Exchequer's decision on what to tax and how influenced companies to design for lowest tax rather than for best product. I don't want to see that return for obvious reasons.
.

Found this link re PT:

http://www.peterice.com/purchasetax.htm

 

[oldgroaner]

Found this link re PT:

http://www.peterice.com/purchasetax.htm

This is worse than the negotiations to leave the EU

 

[oyster]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmdohBRllRI/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=embed_loading_state_control

Story about the photographer/"troll" here:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/15/pete-souza-obama-photographer-trump-trolling

 

[oyster]

This is worse than the negotiations to leave the EU

I daren't even start to think about the software cost of changing from VAT to, well, anything else.