Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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Do you really think that the legislation now applying to Health and safety , employment, benefits, the environment, the cost of living and the NHS won't take a hit?
The EU will remain our biggest trading partner for a very long time, by shear gravity. We'll have to accept or follow EU standards on goods, H&S, state aids etc or stay close to it - there is a scope for variation but by and large, we'd have to stick to EU's standards anyway.
You need to think in terms of macro-economics. External trade is important but it's a smaller part of the economy and we'll continue to trade, deal or no deal. Don't get too hung up on GDP growth and and tax revenue that would have been if we were to remain. We'll leave but gravity will keep up in close orbit like the moon and earth.
 

Woosh

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yes we did, It's you remainers who keep pushing us in front of the bus
there is a ring of truth in it - even on here.
 

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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That's intrinsically nonsensical. We are where we are, it's the Leavers who are making the change into a whole host of new problems, while having no answers to them.
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soft leavers (leave on EFTA) and hard brexiters (leave on CETA) have answers on most points.
It's only the Chequers plan that is non-sensical.
TM tries to have cake and eating it. The EU will never let her have her way. They have repeated on each occasion 'no cherry picking' and TM still does not want to take their red lines into account.
Her aim is to keep the conservatives from splitting and at the last minute, accept a CETA+ to kick the can down the road for 2 more years.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,214
30,614
soft leavers (leave on EFTA) and hard brexiters (leave on CETA) have answers on most points.
It's only the Chequers plan that is non-sensical.
TM tries to have cake and eating it. The EU will never let her have her way. They have repeated on each occasion 'no cherry picking' and TM still does not want to take their red lines into account.
Her aim is to keep the conservatives from splitting and at the last minute, accept a CETA+ to kick the can down the road for 2 more years.
But Gray's point was that it's the Remainers causing the problems, not soft or hard Brexiters. Remaining has no new problems, we just carry on as we are.

Otherwise I agree with your post, but with the exception that the Hard Brexiters don't have viable answers. Their answers are mostly seriously flawed or amount to "If we don't get our way we'll just walk out", itself creating the largest possible number of problems.
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Once again an urban myth, not very original at all
This is your opportunity, tell us exactly what we "remainers' have done that keeps pushing you under a bus
The truth is that brexit is a a bad idea that will never work, the people who pushed you under a bus were the liars and cheats of the leave campaign using dubious funds, and guess where they came from?
You've been had, lock stock and barrel.
At this very moment they are arguing about the single market and the customs union which they vehemently denied we would have to leave, pointing out how desirable it was to stay before the referendum.
You are not a victim in this disaster,you are a perpetrator
Remember your side won and is in charge.
Be so good as to tell them to fix the mess brexit voter's made, after all they keep insisting they knew what they were voting for.
.
yes we did, It's you remainers who keep pushing us in front of the bus
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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No there isn't

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
brexiters are slowly pushed back, and now overtaken by the second referendum campaign.
Same on here, fewer pro brexit combattants compared to the early months.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
The EU will remain our biggest trading partner for a very long time, by shear gravity. We'll have to accept or follow EU standards on goods, H&S, state aids etc or stay close to it - there is a scope for variation but by and large, we'd have to stick to EU's standards anyway.
You need to think in terms of macro-economics. External trade is important but it's a smaller part of the economy and we'll continue to trade, deal or no deal. Don't get too hung up on GDP growth and and tax revenue that would have been if we were to remain. We'll leave but gravity will keep up in close orbit like the moon and earth.
While there is some truth in your comments, I think you continue to underestimate the scale of the problem which will only begin to become apparent following our exit from the EU, should that come to pass.

Many dispassionate commentators have previously debunked the notion that we have aces to play in the ongoing negotiations so I'm at a loss to see how we can possibly expect to reach any kind of deal that isn't painful and punitive because the EU has always held all the aces. May's got her head so far up her backside that she has lost touch with reality and it has become clear that she simply doesn't have the talent, guile or charisma to impress foreign leaders, as witnessed on her current jolly abroad.

We need them a whole lot more than they need us and anyone who imagines that corporate Germany and France will soften up for fear of losing the UK as a large trade outlet is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Those two major players, not to mention Italy, Spain, Portugal and all the more recent entrants into the EU will happily accommodate the large companies which will exit the UK during the next few years if 'Brexit' is not stopped.

Currently, there are many car manufacturing plants in the UK but of those, only a few are British-owned. I believe that Honda, Toyota and Nissan will pull out within the next two to three years as their corporate interests will be better served elsewhere. That will add enormously to this nation's welfare bill.

As we cannot produce sufficient food to satisfy demand within the UK, we will need to import lots of produce from wherever we can get it but it won't be cheap. Food, medicines, space and aviation research projects will cause us major problems and of course, the banking operations in the City and at Canary Wharf will be easily dispersed to venues in mainland Europe.

This is the position in regard to the carmaking industry as of late last year:

https://www.theaa.com/car-buying/cars-made-in-britain

Tom
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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I'm at a loss to see how we can possibly expect to reach any kind of deal that isn't painful and punitive because the EU has always held all the aces.
it depends on what you see as advantages.
Take this statement for example: 'we pay a lot of money to the EU every year'. What is a lot?
take another example: 'immigration should be in the tens of thousand' currently, net immigration from outside the EU alone runs at more than twice the target.
Although I think that a EFTA is better than CETA, a deal with the EU based on CETA would not be detrimental to the UK. After all, Canada does not suffer any loss in signing CETA with the EU. CETA will deliver better control of immigration.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,214
30,614
Although I think that a EFTA is better than CETA, a deal with the EU based on CETA would not be detrimental to the UK. After all, Canada does not suffer any loss in signing CETA with the EU. CETA will deliver better control of immigration.
But we don't know if we can even have CETA, even in the EU it's only provisional while the ECJ examine it on Belgium's request.

I've seen no guarantee from Canada that we can be a CETA member and can envisage the EU being opposed if we hard exit. If either of them says no, we're out.
.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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yes we did, It's you remainers who keep pushing us in front of the bus
Gray 198....I assume by that comment you are still a committed Leaver,would you want a hard Brexit (no deal).
I don’t think Remainers are ‘pushing us in front of a bus’,that comment surely is more relevant to Brexiteers,especially the ERG group in parliament.
Leavers seem to fall back on meaningless sound bites....’taking back control’......we already have control of our money,we already have control of non EU immigration,we seem to be able to make our own laws,what more control do Leavers want?
Leavers don’t seem to be able to give any detail on what they are looking for and don’t seem to want to sensibly answer how our economy is going to improve after we Leave the EU.
Rees-Mogg admitted,surprisingly!,that the benefits of Brexit may take 50 years and his solution to the Irish border is let it sort itself out,he also said that lorries could go to Rotterdam instead of Calais,that would be bedlam.
The R-M,IDS,Bone,Redwood have a secret agenda that Brexit will advantage and they have been clever to hi-jack a big group to support that agenda,but I am sure that many of that group don’t really have any idea what the ERG have intended for them.
KudosDave
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sorry 'Woosh' but you have me at a loss with these:

it depends on what you see as advantages.
Take this statement for example: 'we pay a lot of money to the EU every year'. What is a lot?
take another example: 'immigration should be in the tens of thousand' currently, net immigration from outside the EU alone runs at more than twice the target.
I fail to see any relevance to the post I made in any of these comments, indeed, it's as if we are speaking different languages.....a bit like if I say, 'How far is it to the station?....and you answer, 'A quarter to three!'

Well done in the World Cup though - fully deserved!

Tom
 
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Woosh

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But we don't know if we can even have CETA, even in the EU it's only provisional while the ECJ examine it on Belgium's request.
Barnier has said many times, the EU wants a deal but it must be one of the existing models. That is their position.
TM wants something that the EU considers a red line: effective SM and CU membership without accepting the ECJ, FOM and not paying into the kitty.
The EU can't give her that and she does not expect the EU will give in. She makes a lot of noises but the only possible reason is internal party management. She wants to push Gove into a corner: See? you have no better idea, have you? She knows that her position is so absurd that Raab has no hope to succeed, she therefore has to take on his job as negotiator in chief otherwise he'd just leave nearer to the deadline.
 
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oldtom

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Woosh

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I bet she'll get a CETA+ at 11th hour.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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Northern Irish can vote the DUP out of power at the next NI Assembly election.
If that's not enough, the GFA allows vote for reunification.
At the end of the day, you have to make a choice, which side of the road you want to be. If you don't, you'll be run over.
It will look perverse, but I agree with Tommie on this one. As I have said previously the island of Ireland has been united for millions of years, it is just that the people are not united. The fear (irrational in my opinion, but Tommie might differ) of an Ireland united under a government in Dublin is so srongly built into NI DUP DNA ,that they would oppose it. Bluntly we would not want to impose a united Ireland settlement on them, we want friendship.
 
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