Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

We did. Have you not noticed the pattern? This is how it works:

1) Convince people they must fear leaving the EU.
2) Ask people to vote on membership of the EU (In or Out)
3) IF 2 = Out Goto 1
4) IF 2 = In Goto 5
5) Democracy has prevailed and the matter can now rest until the end of time.

This is how both Ireland and Portugal became members of the EU and it is such a fantastic organisation they need to keep having multiple re-runs of the election until their desired outcome is achieved. Not a hint of, "let's make the EU a fair and attractive organisation so that people will WANT to join and stay in." The EU is based on similar moral principles to the Kray twins 1960s protection rackets. If ya know what's good for ya, you'll vote IN type of coercion. The problem is, UK citizens aren't very good at being bullied.

You are forgetting one very important fact.
The British Government never ever wanted to become real members of the EU, they simply wanted to rip it off and use it as a whipping boy.

Had they made even the slightest effort to bring about reforms of the EU and stopped lying about it, then there would very likely have been many changes made by now.

And then we get comical nonsense like yours adding to the the mess.
In fact the UK citizens are the worlds worst for letting themselves be bullied, otherwise why would they ever firstly vote for the poison of Tory rule, and then vote for Brexit that effectively more on less continues that bullying rule in perpetuity?

No tillson it isn't the EU that is as you put it
"The EU is based on similar moral principles to the Kray twins 1960s protection rackets. I"

That description only fits the UK Conservative party.

 

[oldgroaner]

I understand what you are saying, but I think staying in now would do even more damage to the UK. In the words of one remainer ' we should just suck it up' and do it. I personally believe they have gone about this back to front. When we voted to leave they should have said ' we are leaving in March 2019. If you want to trade come and see us. We will leave on WTO rules'. That way plans could have been made and the farce that's gone on could have been avoided. TM has been far too timorous to get a deal, probably being undermined all the way. She as the leader has done a terrible job and was clearly not up to it. A bad deal for the country will cost the Conservative party dear and possibly lead to a labour government run by Corbyn . Then the youngsters who vote for his lies will see what it means to be struggling. I have not seen the polls but read that there has been a strong swing towards UKIP and also that labour are now ahead in the polls. If UKIP can get their act together they could cause some problems

This idea of using WTO rules is a non starter
https://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing-simple-about-uk-regaining-wto-status-post-brexit
"
The UK is already a WTO member, but its membership terms are bundled with the EU’s. Re-establishing the UK’s WTO status in its own right means both the UK and the EU would negotiate simultaneously with the rest of the WTO’s members to extract their separate membership terms. Agreement on the UK’s terms is unlikely before those of the EU.

For its part, the UK would have to negotiate with the EU itself, the US, China, Russia, India, Brazil, and any trading nation or group of nations that matters, large or small, rich or poor. It would only take one objection to hold up the talks because the WTO operates by consensus, not voting, one reason why WTO negotiations take so long.
We simply can't survive on WTO rules and out of the EU it will take years to negotiate both membership (not automatic and the other members have to agree to admit us) and each individual agreement."

I for one rather hope we do come out, then the lesson will be simplified

If successful that is likely to take longer than I have left to live
If not, then a lot of gullible fools will learn a very hard lesson indeed.

Either way we will end up either as a satellite of the EU or part of it.

 

[Danidl]

so basically you want to change the voting rules to favour remain??

No can you not see that many ,who had a particular interest were disenfranchised, ..eg the ex pat Brits..

 

[tillson]

I understand what you are saying, but I think staying in now would do even more damage to the UK. In the words of one remainer ' we should just suck it up' and do it. I personally believe they have gone about this back to front. When we voted to leave they should have said ' we are leaving in March 2019. If you want to trade come and see us. We will leave on WTO rules'. That way plans could have been made and the farce that's gone on could have been avoided. TM has been far too timorous to get a deal, probably being undermined all the way. She as the leader has done a terrible job and was clearly not up to it. A bad deal for the country will cost the Conservative party dear and possibly lead to a labour government run by Corbyn . Then the youngsters who vote for his lies will see what it means to be struggling. I have not seen the polls but read that there has been a strong swing towards UKIP and also that labour are now ahead in the polls. If UKIP can get their act together they could cause some problems

Like him or loath him, and the majority on here loath him, if Farage takes over UKIP again, I can see The Cons and Labour having a complete melt-down. I think UKIP would be back as a major political force, propelled by voter’s anger, resentment and a feeling of betrayal with the main political parties. Could be fun.

 

[Woosh]

Like him or loath him, and the majority on here loath him, if Farage takes over UKIP again, I can see The Cons and Labour having a complete melt-down.

I can't see Aaron Banks donating millions to UKIP this time round.
Without the money, Farage won't be interested.

 

[oldgroaner]

Like him or loath him, and the majority on here loath him, if Farage takes over UKIP again, I can see The Cons and Labour having a complete melt-down. I think UKIP would be back as a major political force, propelled by voter’s anger, resentment and a feeling of betrayal with the main political parties. Could be fun.

Major political FARCE more like I don't think Putin will bankroll them again using "useful idiots"

 

[tillson]

Major political FARCE more like I don't think Putin will bankroll them again using "useful idiots"

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[oyster]

If UKIP can get their act together they could cause some problems

Probably lots and lots of problems for those of non-Christian backgrounds.

 

[Danidl]

They have absolutely no right to defy the outcome of the referendum and however it's dressed up, to go against the vote will ignite a smouldering, deep seated resentment.

The government have made such a monumental balls-up of the Brexit process, that I now think it is safer for us to stay in the EU, despite having voted out. It's a pathetic state of affairs when you choose something, not for it's benefit, but because the retards running the country are incapable of taking a $h!t without injuring themselves.

I can adapt and make remaining in the EU work to my advantage by screwing those who voted to stay in. It's what they would have wanted, as they say

The tenor of the question, and your answer implies that the irish people , both North and South have no right in this matter and should perhaps be cheering on a Brexit.
So lets state facts...
1. Only those resident in NI had a vote as they are still UK subjects.... they voted by a clear majority to remain.
2. The majority of the Irish population, living South of the border, had of course no vote. Had we had, we would have mirrored our Northern colleagues.
3. The DUP , which claims to be the governments party does not reflect the will of the people
4. We will have a deep seated resentment if the actions of a marginal majority recreate the conditions which will reignite the passions and violence which we have just succeeded in putting a lid on... there is unfortunately incidences .
5. Can you suggest any reason why the RoI should wish to join with the UK, turn its back on 50 years of respect and growth. Remember we have a shared history , which from the 1801 Act of Union until 1949 , was primarily one of exploitation. It was only post 1972 and Irelands direct access to europe that that lessened.

 

[Danidl]

I understand what you are saying, but I think staying in now would do even more damage to the UK. In the words of one remainer ' we should just suck it up' and do it. I personally believe they have gone about this back to front. When we voted to leave they should have said ' we are leaving in March 2019. If you want to trade come and see us. We will leave on WTO rules'. That way plans could have been made and the farce that's gone on could have been avoided. TM has been far too timorous to get a deal, probably being undermined all the way. She as the leader has done a terrible job and was clearly not up to it. A bad deal for the country will cost the Conservative party dear and possibly lead to a labour government run by Corbyn . Then the youngsters who vote for his lies will see what it means to be struggling. I have not seen the polls but read that there has been a strong swing towards UKIP and also that labour are now ahead in the polls. If UKIP can get their act together they could cause some problems

The only point i can agree with is that the UK has done this backwards...
A more logical way might have to create a royal commission with cross party membership and as a national strategic objective. Then to identify All the problems, the legislation required, the land purchases necessary, and make a 50 year strategy( if that was what it was going to take) . Then and only then to trigger A50.
I dont think the result would be perefect, but it would be less of a shambles. A bad plan is still a bad plan even well executed

 

[oyster]

The tenor of the question, and your answer implies that the irish people , both North and South have no right in this matter and should perhaps be cheering on a Brexit.
So lets state facts...
1. Only those resident in NI had a vote as they are still UK subjects.... they voted by a clear majority to remain.
2. The majority of the Irish population, living South of the border, had of course no vote. Had we had, we would have mirrored our Northern colleagues.
3. The DUP , which claims to be the governments party does not reflect the will of the people
4. We will have a deep seated resentment if the actions of a marginal majority recreate the conditions which will reignite the passions and violence which we have just succeeded in putting a lid on... there is unfortunately incidences .
5. Can you suggest any reason why the RoI should wish to join with the UK, turn its back on 50 years of respect and growth. Remember we have a shared history , which from the 1801 Act of Union until 1949 , was primarily one of exploitation. It was only post 1972 and Irelands direct access to europe that that lessened.

The present situation is that the brexit majority seems more willo'thewisp (with or without Kenneth Williams) than WillOfThePeople.

It is always a difficulty when those affected by a decision are without the process in which the decision is made. Of course we wouldn't really want to make the changes that would be implied, but you could see an argument that our nearest neighbours, those with the largest trading relationship, etc., could have some means of expressing their views. After all, like it or not on both sides, they will be affected by decisions like leave or remain.

 

[gray198]

whats that got to do with anything

 

[Wicky]

If UKIP can get their act together they could cause some problems

Bad enough with Trump stirring up **** with his semi-mandating BJ, let alone foretelling Farages umteempth chummy Arthurian rearrival ... to keep us heading on a course to offshore self-inflicted obscurity.

 

[Kudoscycles]

so basically you want to change the voting rules to favour remain??

I do think it was unfair that the U.K. European expats were not included in the first vote,yet Gibraltar was included. The expats are more affected by the votes than anyone.
I sell a product into the EU that is built to EU standards,my product does not need to be made to U.K. standards because we are part of the EU. If I made a product for only the U.K. the market would be so small to be not economic.
The product 15 years ago had 7 different standards throughout Europe. The EU had a team who harmonised all these standards into one so that we could all sell to each other,very sensible. If we crash out of the EU that would be a disaster for U.K. suppliers of that product.
My product does not meet U.K. standards,which are now out of date ,so I would be forced to move distribution of the product to Europe or forget it.
That story can be repeated thousands of times,we cannot leave Europe without a deal.
Rees-Mogg ignores all these practical problems in seeking his ideological scenario,but he makes all his money elsewhere in the world using US dollars,the U.K. going downhill wouldn’t bother him.
KudosDave

 

[tommie]

The tenor of the question, and your answer implies that the irish people , both North and South have no right in this matter and should perhaps be cheering on a Brexit.
So lets state facts...
1. Only those resident in NI had a vote as they are still UK subjects.... they voted by a clear majority to remain.
2. The majority of the Irish population, living South of the border, had of course no vote. Had we had, we would have mirrored our Northern colleagues.
3. The DUP , which claims to be the governments party does not reflect the will of the people
4. We will have a deep seated resentment if the actions of a marginal majority recreate the conditions which will reignite the passions and violence which we have just succeeded in putting a lid on... there is unfortunately incidences .
5. Can you suggest any reason why the RoI should wish to join with the UK, turn its back on 50 years of respect and growth. Remember we have a shared history , which from the 1801 Act of Union until 1949 , was primarily one of exploitation. It was only post 1972 and Irelands direct access to europe that that lessened.

You seem a tad shrill tonight Dan ??!!!

By trying to use Brexit to create a backstop that separated Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK Leo has shot himself and Ireland in the foot. A no deal EU imposed hard border will be entirely his fault, and hurt Ireland a lot more than it will hurt the UK.

So after those amendments today the `Irish Sea` border is now as dead as a dodo - a good day for this part of the UK both economically and politically.

Go Forth and Rejoice - Roll on March 29th!

 

[oyster]

hard brexit, soft brexit

All this talk of soft and hard doesn't half remind me of the Worzels.

Chitterling, chitterling, chitterling
Chitterling is all I crave
Fill me up with chitterling
Think of all the cash you'll save
You can do Irish stew Cordon bleu
Stuff it where you stuff your fancy soups
You can buy it soft or hard
By the pound or by the yard
Chitterling's the stuff to give the troops

Come to think of it, leaving is even less appealing than chitterlings.

 

[Danidl]

You seem a tad shrill tonight Dan ??!!!

By trying to use Brexit to create a backstop that separated Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK Leo has shot himself and Ireland in the foot. A no deal EU imposed hard border will be entirely his fault, and hurt Ireland a lot more than it will hurt the UK.

So after those amendments today the `Irish Sea` border is now as dead as a dodo - a good day for this part of the UK both economically and politically.

Go Forth and Rejoice - Roll on March 29th!

Tommie, not shrill but certainly concerned. The activities in (London)Derry within the past week should fill both of us with foreboding. The young quickly forget the lessons of the past. .. To paraphrase Pearse .. the dead, the dead, they have left us their Fenian fools .. ( you can just as easily insert Loyalist).

When and if you leave, the consequences are all due to the leavers, not those who remain. The abrogation of responsibility by leading BREXITeers is breathtaking. Whatever other posters have to say about Mrs May, at least she has recognised this.

 

[flecc]

The government have made such a monumental balls-up of the Brexit process, that I now think it is safer for us to stay in the EU, despite having voted out.

Which sums up why I voted Remain. For many decades our governments have proved to be incompetent. So much so that I had, and still have, no faith that they could even begin to make a success of Brexit.

How could anyone imagine that the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson could lead us to a better Brexit future, symbols of proven failure living in an imaginary past as they do?
.

 

[tillson]

Which sums up why I voted Remain. For many decades our governments have proved to be incompetent. So much so that I had, and still have, no faith that they could even begin to make a success of Brexit.

How could anyone imagine that the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson could lead us to a better Brexit future, symbols of proven failure living in an imaginary past as they do?
.

I must agree with you.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Neither the US nor Russia want a strong EU, I fear the UK has been a pawn in this game...