Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

View attachment 25200

Or try this (Solzhenitsyn's speech to Harvard in 1978 - still relevant today):

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/alexandersolzhenitsynharvard.htm

Apart from the fact the Tee shirt demostrates his appalling lack of understanding of Human Biology,
he never did understand the difference between Bolshevism and Socialism did he?

Bolshevism was the ultimate expression of Right wing State Capitalism in all it's squalid forms, not really any different from what Conservaties offer, where an Elite abuse the Public is it?

After all, we already have levels of surveillance, tracking our movements, and propaganda exposure to the official Fake truths the old communist states would drool over......

And our Foreign Policies are just as agressive, with Gun running to dodgy regimes, and handy little bush wars that are good for the arms trade.

And after all, what is the biggest Capitalist right wing state?
China of course and it's Communist, and represents one of the big hopes to rescue us after Brexit.
Strange Bedfellows Brexiteers are prepared to accept.

And now Brexit means the Elite can keep their dodgy offshore bank accounts safe too..

 

[Zlatan]

You are in favour of not bothering with trying to come to an agreement, just decide on the spur of the moment?
On face values?
Too much is at stake for blundering fools sponsored by the NRA like Trump to be involved without huge risk to us all.
I prefer my humble opinion to that idea any day

If you kicked out all politicians with connections to NRA in US there would be few left. Besides, it's called democracy. Alien as it is to us, millions of Americans agree with right to carry arms. There are two sides to every argument OG, if we carried guns perhaps ( big perhaps) there might be fewer moped attacks.
And, credit where credit due. DT is meeting with Kim, has opened both a dialogue and channel of communication with him. That's a first and should be applauded. Putin is also planning on meeting him. That will be a strange clash. Assess the man on his results not the hair cut and mad personality he displays. So far so good.
Do you imagine HC meeting Kim Jong or Putin?? Can't see it myself.

 

[Woosh]

Assess the man on his results not the hair cut and mad personality he displays. So far so good.

where is his wall? extreme vetting? Jobs for the rust belt?
all talk and behaving badly.

PS: he did manage his tax cut for his family and his mates.

 

[oldgroaner]

If you kicked out all politicians with connections to NRA in US there would be few left. Besides, it's called democracy. Alien as it is to us, millions of Americans agree with right to carry arms. There are two sides to every argument OG, if we carried guns perhaps ( big perhaps) there might be fewer moped attacks.
And, credit where credit due. DT is meeting with Kim, has opened both a dialogue and channel of communication with him. That's a first and should be applauded. Putin is also planning on meeting him. That will be a strange clash. Assess the man on his results not the hair cut and mad personality he displays. So far so good.
Do you imagine HC meeting Kim Jong or Putin?? Can't see it myself.

You started off with a good idea, kick out all politicians connected with the NRA, and as to guns, a civilised nation doesn't need an armed population, we had one at one time and frankly its not so much about democracy as common sense.
The word to be used with regard to an armed population is Anarchy not democracy, we might as well all go round armed like savages and kill strangers on sight....oh they do that, and now it's speading here...

The only reason that Trump and kim are meeting is that Kim's run into serious trouble with self inflicted damage to the Koreat test site and no doubt can't afford to carry on, and Trump is threatening him, with China turning away and leaving him hung out to dry.

Yes I will judge him on the results, what happens after the glorious headlines and reality sets in, as the man lies after just abour every meeting he attends and just says whatever comes into his empty head, and the other party to this meeting of morons is even less likely to be reliable.

They are both going there lying through their teeth about their intentions.
Two egotists who want to appear the saviours of the world
In reality The Korean Nuclear threat is over rated and they both know that.

All reminiscent of the Cold War when the first Satellite Reconnaisance of Russia revealed they had less that a fraction of the Nuclear and conventional forces they claimed to have, because they couldn't afford more.

 

[oldgroaner]

If you kicked out all politicians with connections to NRA in US there would be few left. Besides, it's called democracy. Alien as it is to us, millions of Americans agree with right to carry arms. There are two sides to every argument OG, if we carried guns perhaps ( big perhaps) there might be fewer moped attacks.
And, credit where credit due. DT is meeting with Kim, has opened both a dialogue and channel of communication with him. That's a first and should be applauded. Putin is also planning on meeting him. That will be a strange clash. Assess the man on his results not the hair cut and mad personality he displays. So far so good.
Do you imagine HC meeting Kim Jong or Putin?? Can't see it myself.

A better plan would be to ban mopeds surely.........

 

[oldgroaner]

where is his wall? extreme vetting? Jobs for the rust belt?
all talk and behaving badly.

PS: he did manage his tax cut for his family and his mates.

And the crisis in the Amercian car industry was of their own making
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_crisis_of_2008–10
And any solution would be high technology based and wouldn't bring the jobs back would it?

 

[Zlatan]

Off you go again ranting OG. I didn't say anything about the right or wrong of carrying guns. Personally think it's route to more deaths, crime etc... But that certainly is not the majority view in USA. Trump is merely representing that.
And much as I, m not keen on Trump and it says something about Western Democracy when he is voted into be probably most powerful man in history, nonetheless, repeating, credit where credit due. Irrespective of motives, outcome or anything else he has or has not done there has certainly been improvement in relationships with North Korea to the point of Trump and Kim sitting down and talking. Not saying any thing else.
The pair of you just seem keen on reacting to anything I post.
I didn't say Trump was world greatest leader or anything. I said credit where credit due. End of.

 

[Woosh]

curious:

Gordon Brown: "Theresa May could be forced out if she loses key Brexit vote."

Why should Labour be worried about a tory PM losing her job?
Surely if that happens, it should be good for Labour.

 

[oldgroaner]

Off you go again ranting OG. I didn't say anything about the right or wrong of carrying guns. Personally think it's route to more deaths, crime etc... But that certainly is not the majority view in USA. Trump is merely representing that.
And much as I, m not keen on Trump and it says something about Western Democracy when he is voted into be probably most powerful man in history, nonetheless, repeating, credit where credit due. Irrespective of motives, outcome or anything else he has or has not done there has certainly been improvement in relationships with North Korea to the point of Trump and Kim sitting down and talking. Not saying any thing else.
The pair of you just seem keen on reacting to anything I post.
I didn't say Trump was world greatest leader or anything. I said credit where credit due. End of.

If you post, would you prefer we ignore you?
Circumstances have brought about the meeting, not some magical virtue on Trumps part, it would have happened anyway.

 

[oldgroaner]

curious:

Gordon Brown: "Theresa May could be forced out if she loses key Brexit vote."

Why should Labour be worried about a tory PM losing her job?
Surely if that happens, it should be good for Labour.

He could be thinking along the lines where you lend a teenager your car and they come back saying
"Good news Dad, the airbags work!"
Except in this case it should be "Windbags"

 

[Zlatan]

If you post, would you prefer we ignore you?
Circumstances have brought about the meeting, not some magical virtue on Trumps part, it would have happened anyway.

No, I, d rather you respond to what I, ve actually written rather than what you have imagined you, ve read. The two are polls apart.
I say Americans have rather a different attitude towards guns to us. You read I support gun laws and launch into some diatribe. As per normal.

 

[tillson]

A better plan would be to ban mopeds surely.........

An even better plan would be to jail the perpetrators for decades, say 60 years, no parole, no visiting rights.

It needn’t be expensive to keep them in prison either, there are ways of doing that cheaply. It’s not very nice for the inmates, but pleasant for the tax payer. I think that would send out the right message.

 

[flecc]

An even better plan would be to jail the perpetrators for decades, say 60 years, no parole, no visiting rights.

It needn’t be expensive to keep them in prison either, there are ways of doing that cheaply. It’s not very nice for the inmates, but pleasant for the tax payer. I think that would send out the right message.

No not expensive lifelong sentences but moderate sentences which work.

No more expensive prisons and no prison warders. Just double electrically fenced compounds with basic shelter supplied with the basics, the raw foods, fuel, cooking and sewage facilities and let the inmates work it out, doing all the work.

If they all end up killing each other, so what, they've chosen to live a lawless life. But the betting is they'd successfully make it work out of necessity and even become better citizens as a result.

It's happened before. We once sent all the undesirables to Australia where they were minimally staffed and had to do everything for themselves. The result now is a society which strictly enforces laws and has one of the highest standards of civil behaviour anywhere.
.

 

[Zlatan]

BTW OG.. Whose the "we".. Always suspected dual identities. Speaking for 2 are you??? Or have you been appointed spokesperson??

 

[oldgroaner]

No, I, d rather you respond to what I, ve actually written rather than what you have imagined you, ve read. The two are polls apart.
I say Americans have rather a different attitude towards guns to us. You read I support gun laws and launch into some diatribe. As per normal.

Good grief! the king of misquotes does it again , no one puts words into other peoples mouths than your good self do they?
You justified their mad choice as "Democratic" remember?
And you went further
"if we carried guns perhaps ( big perhaps) there might be fewer moped attacks."
Really

And who are the "we"? you ask, you wrote this and provided your own answer
"The pair of you just seem keen on reacting to anything I post."
And now you have suggested this?

"Always suspected dual identities"
Is it so hard to believe that more than one person disagrees with you?
Just what has your imagination come up with now?

And of course there was this novelty
"Speaking for 2 are you??? Or have you been appointed spokesperson??
I expressed my opinion of you claiming "The Pair of you"

Rather less ambitious than jumping to be spokesman for a large proportion of the population of the USA ,as their self appointed apologist for lunatic ideas.

 

[oldgroaner]

The Spectre rears it's ugly head again
From the independent
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-trump-ambassador-expelled-mp-demand-richard-grenell-brietbart-a8384121.html

Calls are growing for Angela Merkel to expel the US ambassador to Germany after the American official said he was working to “strengthen” right-wing political movements in Europe.

Richard Grenell, who was appointed by Donald Trump and who has only been in office since 8 May, made the politicised comments in an interview to the far-right website Breitbart.


The German foreign ministry said it had “asked the US side for clarification” after the card-carrying Republican appeared to say he wanted to intervene in European politics – a massive breach of diplomatic protocol.
“I absolutely want to empower other conservatives throughout Europe, other leaders,” he was quoted by the website as saying, also adding that he thought Mr Trump’s election had “empowered” people fighting against the political establishment.
“What this man is doing is unique in the history of diplomacy. If the German ambassador in Washington would say that he is there to strengthen the Democrats, he would be expelled straight away.”


Ralf Stegner, the SPD’s chief in the state of Schleswig-Holstein, said an ambassador should be “a diplomatic representative of his country not an election fighter for right-wing parties”, while SPD MP Thorsten Schäfer-Gümbel added: “European citizens don’t need a Trump vassal to tell them who to vote for. A US ambassador who meddles in the democratic process to such a degree is simply misplaced.”

Who would have thought the Americans could have bigger fools than Boris?

 

[anotherkiwi]

A better plan would be to ban mopeds surely.........

Or give young people real jobs with decent wages? I know it is a bit "way out there" as a thought but it might work?

It's happened before. We once sent all the undesirables to Australia where they were minimally staffed and had to do everything for themselves. The result now is a society which strictly enforces laws and has one of the highest standards of civil behaviour anywhere.
.

Cough... Choke... Gurgle... I'll pass on that one.

And much as I, m not keen on Trump and it says something about Western Democracy when he is voted into be probably most powerful man in history, nonetheless, repeating, credit where credit due.

When a person is elected to office "democratically" with a minority of the public vote it seems to point out that the particular democracy is a wee bit broken. Needing millions of dollars to participate as a candidate isn't a criteria that points to democracy either. And we could go on about that particular "free society" - freedom to be a nazi out in the streets spewing bile but not an unarmed black person for example...

 

[Woosh]

Rees-Mogg:

"no need for customs checks at Dover in no-deal Brexit"

I thought he wanted to control our money and border.

Rees-Mogg:

“The delays will not be at Dover, they will be at Calais.”

What is the difference if the tomatoes rot in Calais instead of Dover?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/11/rees-mogg-no-need-for-customs-checks-at-dover-in-no-deal-brexit

The leading Conservative party Brexiter said checks would not be needed because EU goods could be trusted.

If he trust the EU that much, he shouldn't want to leave in the first place.

Contradiction.

 

[Zlatan]

Or give young people real jobs with decent wages? I know it is a bit "way out there" as a thought but it might work?



Cough... Choke... Gurgle... I'll pass on that one.



When a person is elected to office "democratically" with a minority of the public vote it seems to point out that the particular democracy is a wee bit broken. Needing millions of dollars to participate as a candidate isn't a criteria that points to democracy either. And we could go on about that particular "free society" - freedom to be a nazi out in the streets spewing bile but not an unarmed black person for example...

FFS. How many more times, I, m not a Trump supporter, it's none of my damned business. I said credit where credit due for opening dialogue with Kim Jong Un.Your reply has nothing at all to do with quote. By all means express your multitude of opinions but dont justify them with references to my posts. Poor form. Red card.And where is the Nazi throwing up black people anyway. Trump was democraticly elected, sort of. Besides you don't believe in democracy.
This thread,actually how some decide to reply, is a waste of fecking time. Pure argument for arguments sake.
OG, I, ve changed my mind, please you and Kiwi ignore every word I post, mind you do that already, and answer what the pair of you think is written between lines.

 

[anotherkiwi]

FFS. How many more times, I, m not a Trump supporter, it's none of my damned business. I said credit where credit due for opening dialogue with Kim Jong Un.Your reply has nothing at all to do with quote. By all means express your multitude of opinions but dont justify them with references to my posts. Poor form. Red card.And where is the Nazi throwing up black people anyway. Trump was democraticly elected, sort of. Besides you don't believe in democracy.
This thread, or how some decide to reply, is a waste of fecking time. Pure argument for arguments sake.
OG, I, ve changed my mind, please you and Kiwi ignore every word I post, mind you do that already, and answer what the pair of you think is written between lines.

I was commenting on him being "democratically" elected, nothing to do with you. You can't be democratically elected by a minority of votes in any other country in the world.

I don't believe the USA is a democracy.

I don't believe the USA is a free country. Especially if you are black or any other colour than white (pink with orange makeup counts as white...).

None of these comments have anything to do with you. The thread isn't a waste of time, it gives insight into how many people view the world.