Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

it was rumoured that DD proposed a '10 mile trade zone' between NI and the ROI.

This is the set of equations that the cabinet has adopted some time ago.

No border for goods and people:
- between NI and ROI,
- between NI and UK,
- between ROI and the remaining 26 countries of the EU

That set has only one solution: no border for goods and people between the UK and the EU.
Is the cabinet so bereft of mathematical skills or just relying on magical thinking to deliver brexit?

 

[flecc]

That set has only one solution: no border for goods and people between the UK and the EU.

Which in turn has only one sensible solution, remain in the EU and try to restore our rebate. The EU would probably grant that just to get rid of the whole silly Brexit business.
.

 

[Zlatan]

https://dailym.ai/2LPAryZ

The alternative view.?

 

[oyster]

Is the cabinet so bereft of mathematical skills or just relying on magical thinking to deliver brexit?

The only possibly answer, it seems to me, is a resounding: Yes!

 

[Woosh]

https://dailym.ai/2LPAryZ

The alternative view.?

Peter Oborne said this in his article:

Alternatively, if the Italians have the courage to back politicians who will pull their country out of the euro, I believe their economy will recover.

Italian banks have been supported by the ECB for years. Any talk of leaving the Eurozone will lead to a banking crisis and a flight of FDI.
That's the last thing you'd want to improve unemployment figures, young and old.

That was just magical thinking.

 

[flecc]

https://dailym.ai/2LPAryZ

The alternative view.?

The repeated nonsense in this is that the EU is out to destroy democracy. It's completely the opposite, the intention to have a union ruled over democratically by the European parliament.

The quicker member countries agree to that the quicker it will happen. Meanwhile the EU Commission exists to steer in that direction and that of necessity only has a tenuous democratic connection. But with union it disappears since its function will have ended.

If and once achieved, the united country of Europe will be little different democratically from countries like the USA, Australia and Canada, all having self governing states ruled over with a light touch by a democratically elected central government.

The structure of those countries demonstrably produce greater personal freedoms than we have in the UK, something the Daily Mail seemingly doesn't want us to have.
.

 

[oyster]

The EU should impose a minimum personal income tax rate and a universal income.

Regardless of income?

So someone surviving on benefits (e.g. unable to work at all) would have to pay income tax? (Even if that is offset by the universal income.)

Any idea of a minimum income tax rate has to put a context. Further, we need to ensure that living on, for example, profits doesn't end up escaping.

 

[Woosh]

the problem as I see it with the EU is that the rich reaps more benefit than the poor. Brexit won't necessarily change that, but look at the way the rich can invest in a low tax economy, live in somewhere with nice weather, plenty of space, cheap food, good wines and no queue at the doctors etc and pay hardly any tax. You are looking at for example a 70 and something year old with rental income from a few flats in London living in Southern Spain (OT, does it ring any bell?). Contrast that with some 30 and something year old renting a flat in London, takes home £500 a week and promptly handover £250 of that to the old guy who enjoys the Spanish sunshine.
I accuse the EU of helping to make that situation dead easy and if we remain, it's not going to change.

 

[oldgroaner]

https://dailym.ai/2LPAryZ

The alternative view.?

A European Superstate is quite simply inevitable, we can either profit from being part of it or suffer by trying to fight it.

Quite simply this "Alternative View" is ignoring reality and living in the past, but hey, lets split up Germany into the 39 separate states, the UK into the Saxon Kingdoms and the USA in nine separate nations.

This alternative view undoubtedly was expressed by slow thinkers in all those states before they merged, yet nobody flogs those dead horses any more.

And what solutions does this man offer? draw back and watch as the EU becomes a Superstate, imagining that we are safe in our little island and wealthy and powerful enough to compete with it?

Is anyone really under the impression that is true? when 50% of businesses here are already foreign owned?

 

[oldgroaner]

the problem as I see it with the EU is that the rich reaps more benefit than the poor. Brexit won't necessarily change that, but look at the way the rich can invest in a low tax economy, live in somewhere with nice weather, plenty of space, cheap food, good wines and no queue at the doctors etc and pay hardly any tax. You are looking at for example a 70 and something year old with rental income from a few flats in London living in Southern Spain (OT, does it ring any bell?). Contrast that with some 30 and something year old renting a flat in London, takes home £500 a week and promptly handover £250 of that to the old guy who enjoys the Spanish sunshine.
I accuse the EU of helping to make that situation dead easy and if we remain, it's not going to change.

And if we leave the 30 year old won't be able to even live where they do now?
Great plan
Stay in and fight for change or leave and be at the mercy of the incompetent reprobates that run this country?
Simple choice

 

[Woosh]

Stay in and fight for change

I'll be dead and gone before the EU is changed. Look at Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, ROI. All are members of the Eurozone. All have signed up to the 3% straight-jacket stability pact. All are too weak to cope with that envelope. Result: they have to tighten their belt and guess what, when that belt is tightened, the poorest are hit first, it's called austerity.
Who benefits? those who own assets that do not devalue because the Euro is strong. Let's step back 30 years. Properties in Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, ROI were affordable to the young, not now, not in 10, 20 years.

 

[Danidl]

f.a.o Danidl possibly...

so there`s gonna be another referendum down there..? !

this would not surprise me.. in fact i might actually vote for that

CONFIRMED: Ireland’s Next Referendum

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2018/05/29/confirmed-irelands-next-referendum-will-be-on-making-wearing-socks-with-sandals-illegal/

Hopefully...... I am a sandals and socks person .. maybe 50 out of 52 weeks per year... So as with a number of recent referendums I will be voting no. I see thecombunation of sandals and socks as a union made in heaven... So am I a closet unionist?.

 

[oldgroaner]

I'll be dead and gone before the EU is changed. Look at Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, ROI. All are members of the Eurozone. All have signed up to the 3% straight-jacket stability pact. All are too weak to cope with that envelope. Result: they have to tighten their belt and guess what, when that belt is tightened, the poorest are hit first, it's called austerity.
Who benefits? those who own assets that do not devalue because the Euro is strong. Let's step back 30 years. Properties in Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, ROI were affordable to the young, not now, not in 10, 20 years.

So how do you explain we have austerity here?
And all the same problems?

 

[tommie]

Hopefully...... I am a sandals and socks person .. maybe 50 out of 52 weeks per year... So as with a number of recent referendums I will be voting no. I see thecombunation of sandals and socks as a union made in heaven... So am I a closet unionist?.

Could be.... along with the good folk up in Donegal maybe..!

 

[Woosh]

So how do you explain we have austerity here?

we have the conservative party which believes in 'sound money', same idea as the stability pact - good for those who have lots of money, means sod all to those who don't.

 

[Woosh]

R4, Today:

Nick Robinson:
“Are you in the Cabinet and your separate working groups making progress?”

Liam Fox:
“Yes we are and the group I am part of are meeting again this week.”

Nick Robinson:
“You say meeting again, how many times have you met so far?”

Liam Fox:
“Our group has met once so far.”

Nick Robinson:
“Met once? On the most important subject, dealing with our future relationship with Europe you have met once?”

Liam Fox:
“Well we have been waiting for a report coming from experts and officials which we have just received.”

Nick Robinson:
“This does not suggest much urgency does it Dr Fox?”

Liam Fox:
“Well we have to wait until we get the work done.
The whole point of setting up these groups the Prime Minister said was that we get this decision right."

So they have not had enough of the experts when they need some scapegoat.

 

[anotherkiwi]

the problem as I see it with the EU is that the rich reaps more benefit than the poor.

Don't think too much Woosh, you'll hurt yourself! That is a world wide problem not restricted to the EU.

 

[anotherkiwi]

The repeated nonsense in this is that the EU is out to destroy democracy. It's completely the opposite, the intention to have a union ruled over democratically by the European parliament.

The quicker member countries agree to that the quicker it will happen. Meanwhile the EU Commission exists to steer in that direction and that of necessity only has a tenuous democratic connection. But with union it disappears since its function will have ended.

If and once achieved, the united country of Europe will be little different democratically from countries like the USA, Australia and Canada, all having self governing states ruled over with a light touch by a democratically elected central government.

The structure of those countries demonstrably produce greater personal freedoms than we have in the UK, something the Daily Mail seemingly doesn't want us to have.
.

“Italians have to take care of the poor regions of Italy. That means more work, less corruption, seriousness, we will help them as we always did. But don’t play this game of loading with responsibility the EU. A country is a country, a nation is a nation. Countries first, Europe second.”

J.C. Juncker

Spain may be on the way to curing its corruption problem, I am not holding my breath...

 

[flecc]

Spain may be on the way to curing its corruption problem, I am not holding my breath...

And a lifeline for Catalonia perhaps? I would expect Pedro Sanchez to release the Catlunian leaders from prison at least in return for their support in parliament. Hopefully later dropping the charges against them.
.

 

[oldtom]

You are looking at for example a 70 and something year old with rental income from a few flats in London living in Southern Spain (OT, does it ring any bell?).

You're close but incorrect if you imagine that that scenario wouldn't exist were there no EU or, if the UK had never been part of that union.

Where I live, there are lots of Spaniards operating along similar lines as the northern European entrepreneurs described in your scenario. They are made up of many locals, many more Madrileńos as well as quite a few from the northernmost regions including Basques.

I would not describe myself as rich by any means but I'm happy with some of the investments I have made. As my friends in Normandy say often, 'La vie est douce!'

Tom