Brexit, for once some facts.

[anotherkiwi]

I lived in London for 8 months in the mid 70's, thank god for Chinese, Indian and Iranian restaurants! At that time the UK was as far from being a foodie nation as one could be. Yes I did know a couple of places that had really good ploughman's at lunch time and a couple of good fish and chip shops but the rest was atrocious. I had an English GF in Wellington and was always over for Sunday lunch which was the classic roast and Yorkshire pudding - unfortunately in the UK at that time there were no restaurants that were "as good as home cooking".

I was taught at school that the UK was my "home", my roots, my origins. I had to go and take a look but sad to say I feel much more at home on the continent than I ever did in the UK and my last name is a well known brand of Scotch Whiskey...

 

[flecc]

There is a huge difference between NY and London. Put bluntly the Americans have no history and London claims one of 2000 years. That matters...

No it doesn't matter at all to people in their normal daily lives, the distant history of a city is an irrelevance. Only that within our lifetimes is of any consequence as we go about our daily business.

All I gleaned from your earlier post was prejudice. I'm delighted that we have such as Polish and other culture shops keeping our London high streets vibrant and alive. Far better that than the rows of derelict boarded up shops in the outer cities where the "keep foreigners out" Leavers dominated.

I'm not keen on most Polish tastes in food so such shops are of little use to me, but that doesn't matter. Equally I never wear any bling so jewellery shops are no use to me, nor do I use nail salons or many other types of retail outlets, but I'm happy for them all to be there for those who do want them.

We in London are privileged to have such a range of choice combined with a thriving economy and I see no reason to knock any aspect of it. I appreciate that some visitors like yourself will not find it to their liking, but last year we set a new record with over 19 million visitors, 2.2 times the population, so we aren't getting it all wrong.
.

 

[flecc]

What is normal changes.

Precisely, which is why both you and Tommie are wrong in implying today's London isn't normal. In every stage of its change it has been normal.

You both seem to be judging against a London long gone, much of which I say good riddance to. Some other parts of Britain need to catch up fast since their normal is no longer fit for purpose.
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[Zlatan]

No it doesn't matter at all to people in their normal daily lives, the distant history of a city is an irrelevance. Only that within our lifetimes is of any consequence as we go about our daily business.

All I gleaned from your earlier post was prejudice. I'm delighted that we have such as Polish and other culture shops keeping our London high streets vibrant and alive. Far better that than the rows of derelict boarded up shops in the outer cities where the "keep foreigners out" Leavers dominated.

I'm not keen on most Polish tastes in food so such shops are of little use to me, but that doesn't matter. Equally I never wear any bling so jewellery shops are no use to me, nor do I use nail salons or many other types of retail outlets, but I'm happy for them all to be there for those who do want them.

We in London are privileged to have such a range of choice combined with a thriving economy and I see no reason to knock any aspect of it. I appreciate that some visitors like yourself will not find it to their liking, but last year we set a new record with over 19 million visitors, 2.2 times the population, so we aren't getting it all wrong.
.

I applaud your acceptance of progress but suspect its also to do with fact you, ir anyone else, has any control over the changes witnessed.
Personally I,d prefer all places to keep their own identity and still be warm and welcoming to new traditions. Perhaps the two are mutually exclusive. In your world view nobody needs their own culture and or identity. I think that's wrong Flecc. We should be proud if our own history and traditions but obviously accept and live alongside others. To my mind London lost its identity years ago...It could be anywhere.
Daniel
Excellent post. I don't see any prejudice in your comments at all.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I applaud your acceptance of progress but suspect its also to do with fact you, ir anyone else, has any control over the changes witnessed.
Personally I,d prefer all places to keep their own identity and still be warm and welcoming to new traditions. Perhaps the two are mutually exclusive. In your world view nobody needs their own culture and or identity. I think that's wrong Flecc. We should be proud if our own history and traditions but obviously accept and live alongside others. To my mind London lost its identity years ago...It could be anywhere.
Daniel
Excellent post.

The old London was dirty, the air was foul and the East End pubs full of violent National Front yobs. Or at least that is how I remember it. Camden Town was scary for a non Irish lad at the time too.

 

[Danidl]

No it doesn't matter at all to people in their normal daily lives, the distant history of a city is an irrelevance. Only that within our lifetimes is of any consequence as we go about our daily business.

All I gleaned from your earlier post was prejudice. I'm delighted that we have such as Polish and other culture shops keeping our London high streets vibrant and alive. Far better that than the rows of derelict boarded up shops in the outer cities where the "keep foreigners out" Leavers dominated.

I'm not keen on most Polish tastes in food so such shops are of little use to me, but that doesn't matter. Equally I never wear any bling so jewellery shops are no use to me, nor do I use nail salons or many other types of retail outlets, but I'm happy for them all to be there for those who do want them.

We in London are privileged to have such a range of choice combined with a thriving economy and I see no reason to knock any aspect of it. I appreciate that some visitors like yourself will not find it to their liking, but last year we set a new record with over 19 million visitors, 2.2 times the population, so we aren't getting it all wrong.
.

I would have hoped that what you gleaned from my post was observation not prejudice.

 

[flecc]

Personally I,d prefer all places to keep their own identity and still be warm and welcoming to new traditions. Perhaps the two are mutually exclusive.

That's the trouble, the two are often mutually exclusive. For example the "Prince Charles" view of architecture and history is completely incompatible with the many 21st century tower blocks we are currently erecting. It's a choice

In your world view nobody needs their own culture and or identity. I think that's wrong Flecc. We should be proud if our own history and traditions but obviously accept and live alongside others.

Here you have it completely wrong, in my world everybody is entitled to their own culture and not have to suffer those who say or imply the presence of their culture is wrong as has happened in this thread.

To my mind London lost its identity years ago....

No, London has never lost its identity, it has merely changed it many times. Many of those changes have been repeats of earlier changes, particularly in relation to immigration which has changed London's identity repeatedly over the last three centuries.

Take the architypal London Cabbie who many think of as the typical Londoner. In fact a huge proportion of them have been and are the descendants of the Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe and elsewhere early in the 20th century. Within 100 years they became the new East Enders, becoming as Cockney as anyone else.

As a Londoner born in Soho of East Ender parents, one an Italian immigrant, I've seen all the changes in Londons identity over more than 80 years and the way in which successive waves of immigrants became Londoners. With that experience I see no cause for concern about London today.
.

 

[flecc]

I would have hoped that what you gleaned from my post was observation not prejudice.

I gleaned both. For a prejudical example:

"That there would be signs on shop windows in different languages , Chinese and Urdu , polish etc is fine and dandy but that some of these shops would have no signs at all in English , as I noted along the edgeware road, is not."

Why must they have signs in English when their purpose is to supply those large populations in London with their native foods? The names on display are the correct names for their products and shouldn't be translated any more than salami or sauerkraut should be translated into English.

Don't imagine these shops are only recent, around 30 years ago I looked at the meat products in a Polish shop in my borough, none labeled in English. Interested I entered and asked, receiving very helpful advice on what I might mostly like or dislike with English tastes.
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[Danidl]

I gleaned both. For a prejudical example:

"That there would be signs on shop windows in different languages , Chinese and Urdu , polish etc is fine and dandy but that some of these shops would have no signs at all in English , as I noted along the edgeware road, is not."

Why must they have signs in English when their purpose is to supply those large populations in London with their native foods? The names on display are the correct names for their products and shouldn't be translated any more than salami or sauerkraut should be translated into English.

Don't imagine these shops are only recent, around 30 years ago I looked at the meat products in a Polish shop in my borough, none labeled in English. Interested I entered and asked, receiving very helpful advice on what I might mostly like or dislike with English tastes.
.

I would expect shops in England to have the name of the shop and probably also its nature in English,. Iqbal's .. tea shop . And perhaps the same in a forigfo script. I would expect them also to have additional information in other languages whether ethnic or not.on the edgeware road I noticed a number of shops which only displayed shop titles and or description in either Arabic or Urdu or other languages . There was no indication of the shop function, ownership or even street number in any European script in some instances
I am not sure on this topic, but my understanding would be that that goods be labelled in the language of the country in which they are for sale. Other languages can of course be also be appended, and there is a need to have specific labels, under EU regulation for other purposes.
Even if the majority of customers are from specific ethnic groups, ignoring the language of the host country is a least bad form and i would suggest deliberately elitist and exclusive.
Like i said i was just a visitor..
When first I visited the edgeware road area some 40 years ago, the shops were occupied in many cases by Indian subcontinent people, selling hi fi and radio kit, but they did it from shops with English script. .. I recall buying a Garrard 86 turntable and nearly losing the power of my arms transporting it in its box via tube and train to Anglesey. Since then itge roadtp has gone through a range of functions more recently phone shops and now a mixum gathering of vap shops and probably food shops

 

[oldgroaner]

The Express are at it again
"
'Don't push Britain too far' EU could end up EMPTY HANDED as UK's Brexit deal LOOMS
THE European Union could end up “empty-handed” if the bloc pushes Britain too hard in the search of a good Brexit transition deal, a political analyst has warned."


I thought the Brexit camp had had enough of "Experts"?
Surely they must realise the EU has a plan to deal with a "Hard Brexit"
Which is more than we have!

 

[tillson]

No it doesn't matter at all to people in their normal daily lives, the distant history of a city is an irrelevance. Only that within our lifetimes is of any consequence as we go about our daily business.

All I gleaned from your earlier post was prejudice. I'm delighted that we have such as Polish and other culture shops keeping our London high streets vibrant and alive. Far better that than the rows of derelict boarded up shops in the outer cities where the "keep foreigners out" Leavers dominated.

I'm not keen on most Polish tastes in food so such shops are of little use to me, but that doesn't matter. Equally I never wear any bling so jewellery shops are no use to me, nor do I use nail salons or many other types of retail outlets, but I'm happy for them all to be there for those who do want them.

We in London are privileged to have such a range of choice combined with a thriving economy and I see no reason to knock any aspect of it. I appreciate that some visitors like yourself will not find it to their liking, but last year we set a new record with over 19 million visitors, 2.2 times the population, so we aren't getting it all wrong.
.

But of those 19 million visitors, isn’t it the distant history of the city, which you dismiss as an irrelevance earlier in your post, which attracts a proportion of them to London?

When I visit cities, whether in the U.K. or in a foreign country, I like to experience the culture and tradition of that region, country or city. Whether in the U.K. or abroad, I think we will lose something if places become multicultural clones of each other, which is what I think you are promoting by suggesting that a city’s distant history is irrelevant.

 

[flecc]

I am not sure on this topic, but my understanding would be that that goods be labelled in the language of the country in which they are for sale.

So all the supermarkets are offending by labeling with foreign product names like salami, sauerkraut, pak choi etc? And as I said, these shops are for those peoples, the proprietors are not trying to sell to the English, nor do they have to.

When first I visited the edgeware road area some 40 years ago, the shops were occupied in many cases by Indian subcontinent people, selling hi fi and radio kit,

Once again, labelled for who they were selling to.
.

 

[flecc]

But of those 19 million visitors, isn’t it the distant history of the city, which you dismiss as an irrelevance earlier in your post, which attracts a proportion of them to London?

When I visit cities, whether in the U.K. or in a foreign country, I like to experience the culture and tradition of that region, country or city. Whether in the U.K. or abroad, I think we will lose something if places become multicultural clones of each other, which is what I think you are promoting by suggesting that a city’s distant history is irrelevant.

Yes, but as I said this doesn't concern or interest me during my daily business, so on a daily basis it's irrelevant to me and most others who live here. This country is far too history obsessed anyway, much of it false.
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[oldgroaner]

What are we to make of this Nerve Poison attack?
Russia is denying responsibility, one of their "Diplomats" going so far as to claim it is either "Fake News" or a plot by Ukraine who he alleges have access to these nerve agents.
On the face of it, it does seem a bit "Obvious" and lacks the finesse the Russians usually employ, was this a case of something not going quite as planned, or is it in fact a set up?
One might imagine the possibility for example of North Korea being capable of using such a ploy, or for that matter the CIA.
Trident doesn't seem to have discouraged this sort of attack, does it?

 

[anotherkiwi]

This country is far too history obsessed anyway, much of it false.
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The parts where you killed, raped and plundered are often true...

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes, but as I said this doesn't concern or interest me during my daily business, so on a daily basis it's irrelevant to me and most others who live here. This country is far too history obsessed anyway, much of it false.
.

History is relative anyway, after all London, Hull , Coventry etc and of course the German cities like Cologne are largely rebuilt and only replicas of their former selves.

 

[oldgroaner]

The parts where you killed, raped and plundered are often true...

This is no place to discuss current affairs......
We make a good living out of Gun running remember.

 

[tillson]

Yes, but as I said this doesn't concern or interest me during my daily business, so on a daily basis it's irrelevant to me and most others who live here. This country is far too history obsessed anyway, much of it false.
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That's fair enough, but it does concern and interest a significant proportion of people resident in the UK and they shouldn't be painted out of the picture.

You said in an earlier post that White British born Londoners are under 46% of the population, so perhaps 54% of the population don't consider themselves as stakeholders in British culture traditions or history. The same can probably said for many other regions across the world and in particular, Europe, as the population in each morph into a similar mix of nationalities with no interest or stake in the local history, culture and traditions. This is what marks out diversity across the world and to see it being eroded, I think is a great shame.

 

[anotherkiwi]

That's fair enough, but it does concern and interest a significant proportion of people resident in the UK and they shouldn't be painted out of the picture.

You said in an earlier post that White British born Londoners are under 46% of the population, so perhaps 54% of the population don't consider themselves as stakeholders in British culture traditions or history. The same can probably said for many other regions across the world and in particular, Europe, as the population in each morph into a similar mix of nationalities with no interest or stake in the local history, culture and traditions. This is what marks out diversity across the world and to see it being eroded, I think is a great shame.

It doesn't work like that where I live, young Basque people are very proud of their cultural heritage. Part of the Basque diversity is a reasonably large population from Senegal who were/are crew on tuna fishing boats. You can find Basque villages where you don't hear a word of Spanish. In Bilbao most all the signs are in basque...

Remember much of the recent history of the EU countries involves Napoleon and his army marching about and placing members of his family as rulers. Tito held together a heady mix of religions and ethnic groups in what was once Yugoslavia. Spain owes much of its cultural heritage to the Moors who occupied it for centuries...

Whiteness and ethnic purity is a very English notion, one they seem to have exported to the USA. Europe has been a melting pot for centuries, even thousands of years, long before the Roman Empire.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/02/07/first-britons-black-natural-history-museum-dna-study-reveals/ then came the Celts, the beaker people, the Vikings, the Angles, the Vikings (again) this time as Normands etc. etc. in no particular order...

 

[flecc]

That's fair enough, but it does concern and interest a significant proportion of people resident in the UK and they shouldn't be painted out of the picture.

I haven't painted anyone out, just said that in my day to day life and business the history is irrelevant, as it is to the whole of the rest of the country for almost all their lives. Our history is like an occasional hobby interest for many and not even that for most who only recall it on rare occasions.

The tourists come here for the obvious, Buckingham Palace and changing of the guard, Parliament, Westminster Abbey, Stratford upon Avon and the like. But with the history obsession of a minority we preserve all manner of valueless buildings on any pretext, disfiguring the countryside and urban areas and preventing or distorting development in many instances.

You said in an earlier post that White British born Londoners are under 46% of the population, so perhaps 54% of the population don't consider themselves as stakeholders in British culture traditions or history. The same can probably said for many other regions across the world and in particular, Europe, as the population in each morph into a similar mix of nationalities with no interest or stake in the local history, culture and traditions. This is what marks out diversity across the world and to see it being eroded, I think is a great shame.

I don't agree that it is a shame since international diversity is what has caused so much warfare and religiously inspired misery through the ages.

And as AK has observed, local diversity will still exist since it's in human nature to identify with the people and place around themselves. That's why the diverse peoples born of many races in London and New York identify as Londoners or New Yorkers and drift towards the local manners of speech and custom.

Hopefully eventually there will be one worldwide language, probably a form of English, and that will be the greatest advance the human race has ever made.
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