Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Tilson, that was an outstanding balanced post , showing why and how the people in ravaged communities voted ...it was a protest vote and a vote of dispair.
The only error in their thought processes is a belief or hope that things could not get worse .. they can and do and in the case of Brexit are virtually guaranteed to get worse. .

The thing is tho Danidl many of the leave areas are much more accustomed to the adversity you predict. Not that many years ago in my area 2 out of 3 houses were for sale and one in 3 under repossesion...around same time people rummaging on slag heaps for fuel and kids going into school simply to get a meal..Yes , it happened, probably some think lets see London cope..
OT
But what's wrong with footballers. Always respected Jamie Carragher but spitting at a car/ girl . He must be earning a million quid a year and risks it to spit at someone ???
And I wonder how many votes JC has just lost ? His stance over the Russian debacle and the sacking of Ms Champion have both come back to haunt him recently.( Another abuse off girls , in Shropshire this time. They are suggesting upto a 1000 victims and 3 deaths ???)
I,ve said it before but its a fact. One of main reasons our government can get away with all their shenanigans is because of the sheer unelectable nature of Labour today. They are a disgrace .

 

[flecc]

.Yes , it happened, probably some think lets see London cope..

That would be ignorance, some of our London boroughs are riddled with poverty and food bank dependency, even when in full time employment, such is the cost of survival here.

My own borough, the largest, is one of two halves. The northern half is old, overcrowded with poor facilities, lower rated schools, high crime levels with gangs like DSN and food bank dependency. This image of the high street shows just one example of the 2011 riots outcome, still not all rebuilt.

The leafy southern half where I live is affluent with the food donation boxes always overflowing with what we buy to give to the food banks as we shop.
.

 

[Zlatan]

That would be ignorance, some of our London boroughs are riddled with poverty and food bank dependency, even when in full time employment, such are the cost of survival here.

My own borough, the largest, is one of two halves. The northern half is old, overcrowded with poor facilities, lower rated schools, high crime levels with gangs like DSN and food bank dependency. This image of the high street shows just one example of the 2011 riots outcome, still not all rebuilt.

The leafy southern half where I live is affluent with the food donation boxes always overflowing with what we buy to give to the food banks as we shop.
.

So even London , after 40 years in EU, isn't the Shangri La its made out to be...
When people say things will get worse out of EU presumably mean we will have more people visiting foodbanks.??

If Corbyn had any sense (political or otherwise) he,d get in touch with Ms Champion and reinstate her.

 

[flecc]

So even London , after 40 years in EU, isn't the Shangri La its made out to be...

It certainly isn't, it's mainly a city of three parts.

One of poverty and food banks.

One of substantial wealth, often at the obscene level.

The remaining majority moderately affluent and comfortable.

We inevitably suffer the same inequalities as the rest of the country, albeit far more extreme here.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Maybe the conclusion is incorrect, perhaps things could get worse. The point that I am making is that these people are looking at it from a different perspective to us, they just see a miserable future they way things are at present.

The job of remain, if they are serious about selling their case, is to convince them they are wrong and that things can get worse for them. Remain need to explain why in terms that are meaningful and it needs to come from someone who they trust. Portraying them as fools, stupid, Brexidiots and all of the other things is only going to strengthen their resolve.

I believe you will find I have been saying the same thing from day one, we are in agreement about their motives, and it is perfectly understandable.

It is far too late to require "Remain" to make it's case, as there is no political will to oppose Brexit, it is simply either going to founder due to the incompetence of the Government, or later when inevitably it cannot survive public anger that no improvement has come from it.
The resolve of the leave voters is irrelevant, as like everything else to do with Brexit it is all nonsense of the most damaging kind.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Danidl]

It certainly isn't, it's mainly a city of three parts.

One of poverty and food banks.

One of substantial wealth, often at the obscene level.

The remaining majority moderately affluent and comfortable.

We inevitably suffer the same inequalities as the rest of the country, albeit far more extreme here.
.

I made one of my infrequent visits to London last week. And while it will be politically incorrect, I can see why some white Brits might take the isolationist stance they have adopted.... They see what they see and believe that their patrimony is being stripped away and replaced with foreignness. The food available as fast food is some mixture of Turkish, chinese, middle Eastern, American, and old English staples of fish and chips and pies is either overpriced or of appalling quality. Lunches of olives and feta were more prevalent than ordinary food.
That there would be signs on shop windows in different languages , Chinese and Urdu , polish etc is fine and dandy but that some of these shops would have no signs at all in English , as I noted along the edgeware road, is not.
Were I British, which i am not, I think i might feel aggrieved.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The older generations in certain parts of Mansfield and the surrounding villages expected to leave school at 15 or 16, find employment at a local colliery and work there until they retired. Entire communities were built around the collieries, colleagues living next door to, or on the same street as each other. When they finished work, they probably socialised together in the clubs and welfares.

As you probably know, during the miner’s strike many men in the Nottinghamshire coal fields continued working in the false hope that their pits would be spared. Having relied upon mining for their livelihood and being “conditioned “ for nothing else, the prospect of pit closures being too horrendous to even contemplate. The Nottinghamshire miners who continued working probably allowed Margaret Thatcher’s government to crush the strike. Those who went on strike, wanting nothing more than a job to support their families, had their heads kicked in by the police.

Of course, the strike failed, pits closed, the miners who continued working were shat upon from a great height by the government and deep resentment, which is still raw today, set in. In these areas today, drugs are everywhere, crime is high, there is no sense of community, the once affluent residents are now poor & using food banks, the streets are a mess and houses are boarded up and vandalised.

So, to use your term, stupid Mr & Mrs Mansfield find it difficult to imagine how things could get worse and if they did get worse, so what? Life is awful anyway. With good reason, they deeply mistrust government, particularly the Torys, so pre-referendum, when the official Tory government line was to vote remain, what are they likely to do?

Now they have to contend with people such as you, pretending that you care about their futures because it makes you feel better, but branding them as being stupid at the same time because that makes you feel superior. They also have journalists trying to publicly humiliate them in order to make a point which suits their political agenda.

They will never change their minds in a million years. These people are grafters, used to earning money the hard way. Making money buying a container load of shite from China for fifty quid and hawking it on for double that is an alien concept to them. When the hawkers then tell them that they are stupid because Brexit will make life harder for their business, they probably think, good.

With good reason, they believe that their lives are shite and probably can’t get much worse. This has all happened whilst being members of the EU. So from their point of view, Brexit is worth giving a chance, even if it is a gamble. They believe they have very little to lose, if anything at all.

Mr and Mrs Mansfield didnt look unhappy,just confused.
Actually most of my containers have 100,000 dollars stock and there is almost nobody in the motorsport industry who doesn't use our product.
The days when everything that came out of China was rubbish is long gone,this is why Liam Fox's intended free trade deal with China is so dangerous,it could destroy what is left of UK manufacturing.
I know that you are involved in aviation and must know of Comac,one of my suppliers does beautiful work for the Shanghai Aircraft Corporation,the Comac aircraft will soon be in the skies competing with the likes of Airbus and Boeing.The supplier has the latest 7-axis machining centres,so useful for fully machining without disturbing the product,none of my UK suppliers have 7-axis.
There are many skills that no longer exist in the UK ,a useful capacity for us is drop forging,it produces a stronger product with less machining,sadly that business is finished now in the UK,we have to go to Asia.
So its not all about price in China,UK manufacturing has lacked investment that makes it impossible to produce locally.
By the way I started with nothing,a red Escort van delivering product every 10 days from a base in Essex,Middlesborough was my overnight stop,there were no couriers 40 years ago. The heyday of the Ford Escort Mexico and RS's got me going,but it was hard graft,must admit I dont have to work so hard these days.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

I made one of my infrequent visits to London last week. And while it will be politically incorrect, I can see why some white Brits might take the isolationist stance they have adopted.... They see what they see and believe that their patrimony is being stripped away and replaced with foreignness. The food available as fast food is some mixture of Turkish, chinese, middle Eastern, American, and old English staples of fish and chips and pies is either overpriced or of appalling quality. Lunches of olives and feta were more prevalent than ordinary food.
That there would be signs on shop windows in different languages , Chinese and Urdu , polish etc is fine and dandy but that some of these shops would have no signs at all in English , as I noted along the edgeware road, is not.
Were I British, which i am not, I think i might feel aggrieved.

This isn't the problem for today's Londoners that it might appear to be, many like me like what has happened and those who didn't have largely departed. White British born Londoners are under 46% of the population now so we are all minorities and mostly happy to be. Remember, we are a strongly Remain area,

There's no problem getting excellent fish and chips etc for residents who know where to go, my local shop has twice been placed second in the national competition, beating thousands elsewhere. One has to be a Londoner of any culture to appreciate it how good it can be.

The oddest thing of all about those British who have fled London over the years is that so many of them now live in foreign countries with the very foreigners they escaped from!
.

 

[tommie]

I made one of my infrequent visits to London last week. And while it will be politically incorrect, I can see why some white Brits might take the isolationist stance they have adopted.... They see what they see and believe that their patrimony is being stripped away and replaced with foreignness. The food available as fast food is some mixture of Turkish, chinese, middle Eastern, American, and old English staples of fish and chips and pies is either overpriced or of appalling quality. Lunches of olives and feta were more prevalent than ordinary food.
That there would be signs on shop windows in different languages , Chinese and Urdu , polish etc is fine and dandy but that some of these shops would have no signs at all in English , as I noted along the edgeware road, is not.
Were I British, which i am not, I think i might feel aggrieved.

Agree with that,
traveling from here in Ireland North or South, to London these days is like entering some strange foreign country, this isn`t britain!
the place is a mess, it`s easy to see why middle england voted for Brexit.
My close relatives who once were happy living in Leytonstone now reside in the countryside outside Limoges. No wonder.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Tillson....The Comac C919 is a narrow-bodytwinjetairliner developed by Chinese aerospace manufacturer Comac. The programme was launched in 2008 and production of the prototype began in December 2011. It rolled out on 2 November 2015 and first flew on 5 May 2017. The C919 is planned to enter commercial service in 2021 with China Eastern Airlines. The aircraft is primarily made out of aluminium. It is powered by CFM International LEAP turbofan engines and can carry 156 to 168 passengers in a usual operating configuration up to 3,000 nautical miles (5,555 km). It is intended to compete primarily with theBoeing 737 MAX and Airbus A320neo. As of the last purchase agreement on 5 December 2017, Comac has 785 orders from 27 leasing companies or airlines, mostly based in China with the exception of GE.
They cant be any worse than the cast off Ryanair Boeing 737-800's that I normally fly China Eastern.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

I can't believe we are all going along with the governments charade,it is obvious to all that we are going to stay in the customs union and the single market,it will just be named something different....BRINO
Theresa May has,to date, given in to every demand made by the EU,she sort of puts up a token resistance but ultimately gives in.
We are not prepared for a hard Brexit and Hammond isnt even allowing funds for one,there are no new customs officers or lorry parks at Calais or Dover.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

Agree with that,
traveling from here in Ireland North or South, to London these days is like entering some strange foreign country, this isn`t britain!
the place is a mess, it`s easy to see why middle england voted for Brexit.
My close relatives who once were happy living in Leytonstone now reside in the countryside outside Limoges. No wonder.

I suspect this is a fairly EU wide issue. I went to Lake,Garda Last year and hired a couple of bikes and a guide who was German / Italian by birth. He,d grown up in West Berlin, moved to Garda for the mountain biking around 12 years ago. He,d gone " home" ti visit old friends and was actually quite upset about what had happened in Berlin. He described it as loosing its identity, he couldn't tell he was in Berlin/ Germany. Said he,d never go back...nothing to go back for.

 

[flecc]

Agree with that,
traveling from here in Ireland North or South, to London these days is like entering some strange foreign country, this isn`t britain!
the place is a mess, it`s easy to see why middle england voted for Brexit.
My close relatives who once were happy living in Leytonstone now reside in the countryside outside Limoges. No wonder.

No London it isn't a mess, it's modern Britain, one part that's kept pace with a multicultural globally trading world. And what strange logic leads middle England to vote Brexit because London where they don't live isn't what they like?

And what even stranger logic prompts your relatives to move to where foreigners live to escape from foreigners in Leytonstone?
.

 

[tommie]

And what even stranger logic prompts your relatives to move to where foreigners live to escape from foreigners in Leytonstone?
.

i don`t think anyone in their right mind could remotely compare the two scenarios!

you`ve just got used to it over the years flecc and think this is normal.

 

[flecc]

you`ve just got used to it over the years flecc and think this is normal.

I don't just think it normal, it is normal. We British lived amongst the peoples of most of the world cultures for centuries and that was normal. Just as it's normal for those other cultures to live amongst us now. Just as it's normal for your close relatives to live in another country with a different language.

Only racism or prejudice or bigotry make these abnormal.

Over time different peoples blend and either become or add another identity. The widely differing peoples that have made up New York's population over more than a century are now all New Yorkers and proudly declaring themselves to be so. Similar has already happened for many in London over the last 100+ years who think of themselves as Londoners and are seen as Londoners by others, and it will continue to happen for the newer ones amongst us.
.

 

[Wicky]

Like the Fish & Chip shops in Spain for expat folk, and speaking to Sri Lankan friends Fish & Chip and Kebab shops are springing up in Sri Lanka....

 

[oldgroaner]

i don`t think anyone in their right mind could remotely compare the two scenarios!

you`ve just got used to it over the years flecc and think this is normal.

What you get used to over the years is actually covered by the description "normal"

 

[Danidl]

I can't believe we are all going along with the governments charade,it is obvious to all that we are going to stay in the customs union and the single market,it will just be named something different....BRINO
Theresa May has,to date, given in to every demand made by the EU,she sort of puts up a token resistance but ultimately gives in.
We are not prepared for a hard Brexit and Hammond isnt even allowing funds for one,there are no new customs officers or lorry parks at Calais or Dover.
KudosDave

I hope you are correct. The only thing better than BRINO is no BREXIT, where the uk will have a place at the table.

 

[Woosh]

TM needs a cliff-hanger to unite the conservative party.
It can still go spectacularly wrong for her at the finishing line toward October-December when Westminster has to vote on the deal.
JRM's ERG can always kick her out of office to get a no deal brexit if Labour decides not to help her.

 

[Danidl]

I don't just think it normal, it is normal. We British lived amongst the peoples of most of the world cultures for centuries and that was normal. Just as it's normal for those other cultures to live amongst us now. Just as it's normal for your close relatives to live in another country with a different language.

Only racism or prejudice or bigotry make these abnormal.

Over time different peoples blend and either become or add another identity. The widely differing peoples that have made up New York's population over more than a century are now all New Yorkers and proudly declaring themselves to be so. Similar has already happened for many in London over the last 100+ years who think of themselves as Londoners and are seen as Londoners by others, and it will continue to happen for the newer ones amongst us.
.

There is a huge difference between NY and London. Put bluntly the Americans have no history and London claims one of 2000 years. That matters... Westminster cathedral was proudly displaying on brass plaques, how it was in communion with the Pope of Rome by displaying the ranking clergyman from about 400ad to the present.
I would take you to task about the use of the word "normal" , perhaps you responded inappropriately to Tommie. What is normal is what the majority of a population accept at any time. It was normal for people's in eastern Europe to assist the Nazis , or so the exhibit in the IWM, would imply. It was normal for the east Germans to inform on their neighbours to the STASI , it was normal for police to harass various groups... or fine upstanding families to send their pregnant daughters abroad or into convents What is normal changes.
And finally while British people did have engagement with nearly all the world's cultures, it was not as equals.... Remember the white man's burden and all that..