Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

sorted ourselves out to become a great trading nation once more

The last time we managed that was by theft of resources from a large empire with slavery providing much of the labour. Since then it's been downhill all the way, gradually at first but rapidly increasing once we'd finally lost the empire.

Joining the EU halted the decline and investment by foreign companies bringing back some manufacturing has enabled some recovery.

I can't see any basis for us to become a great trading nation without those inbuilt advantages.
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[oldgroaner]

There's a lot of truth in that. Fortunately I won't be here and neither will you I suspect - just a lot of old hot-air aren't we? The Japanese are good at the long game and in many ways the Chinese deserve better so I don't feel so bad with that scenario. Better than wasting it all on the Europeans.

I don't expect to be here either, yes it is hot air, as really that is what is Brexit about, a power play by a sordid bunch of right wing nut jobs in the Tory party that got out of hand and is intent on abusing the system for their own advantage.
What I do expect is that the inescapable consequence of present events is merely a delay in the process of the Formation of a United States of Europe, and our becoming an important part of it, instead of a parasite on it as we are now.

By the way the expression "Wasting it all on the Europeans" puzzled me.
Would that be the less than we should have paid membership fees after the Rebate?
That's another Urban Myth from someone else, I thought only lefties did that?
You are aware that we pay less than Italy, France and Germany in that order I take it?

 

[PeterL]

I don't expect to be here either, yes it is hot air, as really that is what is Brexit about, a power play by a sordid bunch of right wing nut jobs in the Tory party that got out of hand and is intent on abusing the system for their own advantage.
What I do expect is that the inescapable consequence of present events is merely a delay in the process of the Formation of a United States of Europe, and our becoming an important part of it, instead of a parasite on it as we are now.

The problem with that is it will fail to resolve any of the problems we have, that includes the United States of Europe. It's not unlike the fall of the Roman Empire, never mind our own. It would seem to simply be the cycle of things: rise to the top and sink to the bottom. History doesn't bode well for us if we were to judge the various empires through time.Mind you we've been here before. we weren't exactly ready in 1939 and I suspect most on here, if around back then, would have voted for becoming part of the USofE?

 

[PeterL]

The last time we managed that was by theft of resources from a large empire with slavery providing much of the labour. Since then it's been downhill all the way, gradually at first but rapidly increasing once we'd finally lost the empire.

Joining the EU halted the decline and investment by foreign companies bringing back some manufacturing has enabled some recovery.

I can't see any basis for us to become a great trading nation without those inbuilt advantages.
.

Maybe some of that sticks but, I do object to people who choose to see history or even would rewrite it to meet a modern day set of values. Totally pointless and very unfair on our ancestors, possibly including your own?

 

[oldgroaner]

Perhaps, reminds me of our own Bulldog spirit, we too will survive and probably do rather well and better than our bigger neighbours

Survive, certainly, do better, just a fortunate few will do that I'm afraid.
The rest will face hardship, no one denies that do they?
Will they accept that Calmly?
That is the question, now factor in that 48% didn't want this situation foisted on them, and will be outraged, and does that lead for "peace in our time?"
More that Bloody minded optimism will be needed.
it really is a case that Brexit had better be an instant success or there will be serious trouble.

 

[oldgroaner]

The problem with that is it will fail to resolve any of the problems we have, that includes the United States of Europe. It's not unlike the fall of the Roman Empire, never mind our own. It would seem to simply be the cycle of things: rise to the top and sink to the bottom. History doesn't bode well for us if we were to judge the various empires through time.Mind you we've been here before. we weren't exactly ready in 1939 and I suspect most on here, if around back then, would have voted for becoming part of the USofE?

We are not leaving because of inherent problems within the EU, but problems of our own creation, remember that.

Expansion of the EU was promoted by us, we had a large part to play in creating the Refugee crisis with our stupid following the American lead like a sick puppy, and all ills for a generation have been laid at the door of the EU in order to divert criticism of the UK administration.

To suggest the EU will fail is an attempt to justify our dismal failure to dominate it and now suffer sour grapes as we leave and wish them ill

Basically we were a liability to it, and they are better off with us out of it.
The pity is we by contrast are in a predicament entirely of our own devising and facing completely unnecessary hardship and likely trouble as this farce has stirred up the pond life at the idiot fringes both right and left of our society.
They now see themselves as urban heroes, spouting slogans they simply cannot comprehend, extremely opposed to things they do not understand, and fired up with each new pack of lies the press fire at them.

Fortunately so far they are a disorganised rabble, let's hope it stays that way.

 

[oldgroaner]

Maybe some of that sticks but, I do object to people who choose to see history or even would rewrite it to meet a modern day set of values. Totally pointless and very unfair on our ancestors, possibly including your own?

Rewrite it? care to elaborate?

I suspect most on here, if around back then, would have voted for becoming part of the USofE?

You suspect wrong, but that doesn't mean we want to leave Europe now to live in a country run by the same sort of people who took over Europe then, though the conservative party did want to surrender to Hitler in 1940 remember?

 

[Woosh]

Expansion of the EU was promoted by us, we had a large part to play in creating the Refugee crisis with our stupid following the American lead like a sick puppy, and all ills for a generation have been laid at the door of the EU in order to divert criticism of the UK administration.

To suggest the EU will fail is an attempt to justify our dismal failure to dominate it and now suffer sour grapes as we leave and wish them ill

Basically we were a liability to it, and they are better off with us out of it.

admit we don't fit in.
we see the EU as the single market, they see it as the sum of all their good solutions accumulated over time. When there are enough collective solutions, then a single country will emerge, likely to comprise the benelux, France, Spain, Italy and Portugal. I think Germany and Austria may want to stay in tier 2.

 

[oldgroaner]

admit we don't fit in.
we see the EU as the single market, they see it as the sum of all their good solutions accumulated over time. When there are enough collective solutions, then a single country will emerge, likely to comprise the benelux, France, Spain and Portugal. I think Germany and Austria may want to stay in tier 2.

Who is this we? there is only a difference of 4% on the number of voter opinions as to whether we fit in or not

 

[flecc]

Maybe some of that sticks but, I do object to people who choose to see history or even would rewrite it to meet a modern day set of values. Totally pointless and very unfair on our ancestors, possibly including your own?

As I'm quite sure you were aware, I made an economic comparison, not in any way commenting on the values involved.

You've just tried to twist that to something else to avoid the comparison, rather than give any possible basis for future economic success outside of the EU.
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[Woosh]

Who is this we? there is only a difference of 4% on the number of voter opinions as to whether we fit in or not

I reckon if there were a referendum to join in the US of E, the margin will be much greater than the 4%.

 

[oldgroaner]

I reckon if there were a referendum to join in the US of E, the margin will be much greater than the 4%.

Now, I agree, but soon........

 

[PeterL]

As I'm quite sure you were aware, I made an economic comparison, not in any way commenting on the values involved.

You've just tried to twist that to something else to avoid the comparison, rather than give any possible basis for future economic success outside of the EU.
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"The last time we managed that was by theft of resources from a large empire with slavery providing much of the labour. "

I obviously missed the economic argument you made - you seemed to imply that we went around shooting people, stealing from them and generally taking advantage?

 

[PeterL]

I reckon if there were a referendum to join in the US of E, the margin will be much greater than the 4%.

Statistics and damn lies. But, I suspect your guess is as good as anyone else's - you really think we'd rush out to join, enmass?

 

[flecc]

"The last time we managed that was by theft of resources from a large empire with slavery providing much of the labour. "

I obviously missed the economic argument you made - you seemed to imply that we went around shooting people, stealing from them and generally taking advantage?

Was that not for economic advantage and did you miss the ensuing mention of a basis for economic success? It was blindingly obvious what my point was.
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[PeterL]

Was that not for economic advantage and did you miss the ensuing mention of a basis for economic success? It was blindingly obvious what my point was.
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Fear not I obviously read what you wrote then chose to reply as I did - it's a failing I have and one that seems afflict all of us. All 1009 pages are littered with such examples. There's was no need for you to embellish what you said about Empire. I'm sure that you would accept that at the time it wasn't seen as thieving or even enslaving people. Fortunately we realised that it wasn't nice and did something about it.

 

[flecc]

I'm sure that you would accept that at the time it wasn't seen as thieving or even enslaving people.

Of course I knew and accept that, but it doesn't alter the very long term economic advantage it gave us, which was my point as the post made very clear.

How would you like me to make the point? Tiptoe around it like the following to satisfy delicate sensitivities:

"We failed to pay for the resources and labour we received that gave us considerable economic advantage".

A bit far from the truth isn't it, even by Victorian standards? It seems to me that, like so many Brexiters, you want to avoid facts that don't suit and instead deliberately misconstrue any cogent argument for remaining in the EU.

I'm not a rabid fan of the EU, recognising all it's many faults and reluctance to change for the better. I just think it the better and certainly safer of the two options, with the possible eventual prize of being unified as a major world power able to protect itself economically and militarily in a future much more dangerous world.
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[anotherkiwi]

Fear not I obviously read what you wrote then chose to reply as I did - it's a failing I have and one that seems afflict all of us. All 1009 pages are littered with such examples. There's was no need for you to embellish what you said about Empire. I'm sure that you would accept that at the time it wasn't seen as thieving or even enslaving people. Fortunately we realised that it wasn't nice and did something about it.

Weren't there some kind of uprisings?

Apparently history is no longer taught in the UK... Yes you got rich by rape and pillage as did France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands... The wealth of the USA is based on slavery and lots of chucking of bombs and economic sanctions against people who don't agree with them....

 

[oldgroaner]

Statistics and damn lies. But, I suspect your guess is as good as anyone else's - you really think we'd rush out to join, enmass?

You weren't supposed to notice the context was reversed[emoji1]

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[oldgroaner]

Fear not I obviously read what you wrote then chose to reply as I did - it's a failing I have and one that seems afflict all of us. All 1009 pages are littered with such examples. There's was no need for you to embellish what you said about Empire. I'm sure that you would accept that at the time it wasn't seen as thieving or even enslaving people. Fortunately we realised that it wasn't nice and did something about it.

Confidentially we knew that all along.

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