Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Perhaps, reminds me of our own Bulldog spirit, we too will survive and probably do rather well and better than our bigger neighbours

I have no doubt we will survive, the doubt about doing rather well comes in for two reasons

1. Brexit Voters have higher than reasonable expectations
2. The Government intends to persecute them using necessity "to make the Will of the people work" as an excuse.

 

[PeterL]

I have no doubt we will survive, the doubt about doing rather well comes in for two reasons

1. Brexit Voters have higher than reasonable expectations
2. The Government intends to persecute them using necessity "to make the Will of the people work" as an excuse.

I obviously have rather more faith than you do. I really do think it important to encourage people to fend for themselves and from that succeed. Bit of a Tory mantra I guess but I obviously favour less government and BREXIT gives us that opportunity once more. The EU is one enormous nanny-state and can only survive by shackling its people, perhaps in cotton-wool at the moment until the money runs out. Before anyone gets too heated I do believe in the NHS and Social care, for those that really need it.

 

[Woosh]

Just a simple question really why aren't we now then? we are running out of room on the deck for the Band and seats as the Titanic goes down, and to make matters worse the Captain has just changed course in the hope of reaching the Bahamas.

just some temporary difficulty.
we'll spread our wings and soar after brexit.

 

[PeterL]

just some temporary difficulty.
we'll spread our wings and soar after brexit.

No difficulty there with so much hot air down below.

 

[oldgroaner]

just some temporary difficulty.
we'll spread our wings and soar after brexit.

Thank you Captain Smith

I have every Faith in you
Even if nobody else has"
said Corporal Jones

And I would remind you of the Great Team out there Batting on our behalf.

"It's hard to soar like an Eagle when you work among Turkeys."

 

[PeterL]

Thank you Captain Smith

I have every Faith in you
Even if nobody else has"
said Corporal Jones

And I would remind you of the Great Team out there Batting on our behalf.

"It's hard to soar like an Eagle when you work among Turkeys."[/QUOTE]
Burn them then

 

[oldgroaner]

No difficulty there with so much hot air down below.

Point taken!

 

[oldgroaner]

And I would remind you of the Great Team out there Batting on our behalf.

"It's hard to soar like an Eagle when you work among Turkeys."

Burn them then[/QUOTE]
Are you allowed to say that?

 

[oldgroaner]

I obviously have rather more faith than you do. I really do think it important to encourage people to fend for themselves and from that succeed. Bit of a Tory mantra I guess but I obviously favour less government and BREXIT gives us that opportunity once more. The EU is one enormous nanny-state and can only survive by shackling its people, perhaps in cotton-wool at the moment until the money runs out. Before anyone gets too heated I do believe in the NHS and Social care, for those that really need it.

You do realise how much of that is unsubstantiated statements, don't you?
"Nanny state" "shackling it's people in cotton wool" "fend for themselves" "until the money runs out"
All propaganda statements, which can be destroyed with reasoned argument, but not supported in that way.
And the biggest howler of all "less government"
And this when the United Nations has complained about what they are doing
"
Digital surveillance 'worse than Orwell', says new UN privacy chief
Joseph Cannataci describes British oversight as ‘a joke’ and says a Geneva convention for the internet is needed.

And this
"
The Government’s welfare reforms and austerity policies have led to “grave and systematic violations” of disabled people’s rights, an inquiry by the United Nations found.

The UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities dispatched investigators to London, Manchester, Birmingham, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast in October last year.

They found that a string of legislation introduced since 2010 as part of welfare reforms and austerity policies had had a negative impact, including the Welfare Reform Act 2012, Care Act 2014, and Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016.

Are you really that unaware of what is being done in your name and with your approval?

Really you need much better material than dodgy catch phrases and Political right wing mantra, they are false and utterly unconvincing, failing even to survive the most cursory of examinations.

 

[PeterL]

You do realise how much of that is unsubstantiated statements, don't you?
"Nanny state" "shackling it's people in cotton wool" "fend for themselves" "until the money runs out"
All propaganda statements, which can be destroyed with reasoned argument, but not supported in that way.
And the biggest howler of all "less government"
And this when the United Nations has complained about what they are doing
"
Digital surveillance 'worse than Orwell', says new UN privacy chief
Joseph Cannataci describes British oversight as ‘a joke’ and says a Geneva convention for the internet is needed.

And this
"
The Government’s welfare reforms and austerity policies have led to “grave and systematic violations” of disabled people’s rights, an inquiry by the United Nations found.

The UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities dispatched investigators to London, Manchester, Birmingham, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast in October last year.

They found that a string of legislation introduced since 2010 as part of welfare reforms and austerity policies had had a negative impact, including the Welfare Reform Act 2012, Care Act 2014, and Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016.

Are you really that unaware of what is being done in your name and with your approval?

Really you need much better material than dodgy catch phrases and Political right wing mantra, they are false and utterly unconvincing, failing even to survive the most cursory of examinations.

I didn't actually say that I applauded current Tory policies but even you surely concede that the need for some belt tightening is a necessity? We are living way beyond our means and paying some far too much for doing absolutely nothing - and yes, some get far too much for arguably doing a lot (important work). So there's an imbalance there somewhere and that generally comes when people are able to set their own rewards based on what they think they are worth. In most cases that is with monies raised from tax-payers. We need a big dose of realism here and an understanding of where the real money comes from - we can't go on printing it or borrowing it. Actually my head hurts when I try to understand current economics, it used to be a s simple as apples and pears in my younger days. If you don't have an apple you go hungry, so go look for one. Now it gets delivered to you all wrapped up in tissue paper, useful to wipe the tears away, or indeed somewhere else, should they forget the cream.

 

[PeterL]

Burn them then

Are you allowed to say that?[/QUOTE]

Probably not = it should have been cooked of course - we were talking about Turkey's / Christmas and the useful hot air it produces?

 

[Kudoscycles]

the BBC has reported what Barnier said in Italy.



It is going to be picked up by the right wing press pretty soon:

I am not going to be educated by anyone. I am
Coming round to
The idea of just quitting telling them to whistle for their money and fining 10% on every German car that is imported into the U.K.
Going off to China and finding a nice Bianchi style bike, name it Eurosport and flood the EU with cheap bikes smuggled in via Dover.. how about a nice weekend in Whitstable and take 2 bikes back to EuroLand , no tariff.
Am going off arrogant Barnier very quickly, nobody 'educates' us.
Tell them we owe them nothing and let them sue as for it,stop all German imports if they want a trade war.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

I didn't actually say that I applauded current Tory policies but even you surely concede that the need for some belt tightening is a necessity? We are living way beyond our means and paying some far too much for doing absolutely nothing - and yes, some get far too much for arguably doing a lot (important work). So there's an imbalance there somewhere and that generally comes when people are able to set their own rewards based on what they think they are worth. In most cases that is with monies raised from tax-payers. We need a big dose of realism here and an understanding of where the real money comes from - we can't go on printing it or borrowing it. Actually my head hurts when I try to understand current economics, it used to be a s simple as apples and pears in my younger days. If you don't have an apple you go hungry, so go look for one. Now it gets delivered to you all wrapped up in tissue paper, useful to wipe the tears away, or indeed somewhere else, should they forget the cream.

The problem we face is one of too high expectation, where powers of persuasion have convinced the population for business reasons that they must have certain possessions to consider themselves a success, and that it is reasonable and right to get into debt to realise that ambition.
Worse the economy is based on consumerism and feeds off this mad situation.
My take is that none of the political parties offers a viable way out of this catch 22 situation, and the only way it can be maintained is as a parasite on the EU , as it isn't a self sustaining organism.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[PeterL]

I am not going to be educated by anyone. I am
Coming round to
The idea of just quitting telling them to whistle for their money and fining 10% on every German car that is imported into the U.K.
Going off to China and finding a nice Bianchi style bike, name it Eurosport and flood the EU with cheap bikes smuggled in via Dover.. how about a nice weekend in Whitstable and take 2 bikes back to EuroLand , no tariff.
Am going off arrogant Barnier very quickly, nobody 'educates' us.
Tell them we owe them nothing and let them sue as for it,stop all German imports if they want a trade war.
KudosDave

It is certainly one of the available options, probably the unfriendly one but it takes two or in this case 1+29. At some point the silliness will stop, I hope.

 

[Kudoscycles]

That Barnier was flustrated at the press conference was evident, but I suggest not for the reasons you propose. He used the words educate which the British press have chosen to misrepresent "as teaching a lesson".
The UK team seen only now to have started to engage after wasting all that time after triggering article 50.
Remember that there is no working majority in Westminster to ensure that any deal can be worked through. So who exactly is the EU negotiating with?. They , the UK side, are working with the old manifesto, for which there is no mandate.
Barnier and is team either read UK newspapers, or have people who do.

Let's be blunt and honest what is happening behind closed doors is we are not agreeing to pay the EU much money, probably no more than our normal yearly payments and the EU are desperate for the money.
Most in the U.K. expected us to vote Remain,I expect the EU thought the same,so they haven't allowed for our loss of revenue.
Barnier has been told ' get lots of money from the Brits, we need it'
The worst thing Barnier did was to 'educate' us, that has made Remainers angry.
I sell lots of stuff to the French, they hate buying from me, but they can't buy it anywhere else.
I also buy lots from the French, I hate buying from them, but I can't buy it anywhere else.
With tariffs, we will still trade, it will just be a bit more expensive.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Just a simple question really why aren't we now then? we are running out of room on the deck for the Band and seats as the Titanic goes down, and to make matters worse the Captain has just changed course in the hope of reaching the Bahamas.

Are they on the top shelf... the bananas that is
KudosDave

 

[PeterL]

The problem we face is one of too high expectation, where powers of persuasion have convinced the population for business reasons that they must have certain possessions to consider themselves a success, and that it is reasonable and right to get into debt to realise that ambition.
Worse the economy is based on consumerism and feeds off this mad situation.
My take is that none of the political parties offers a viable way out of this catch 22 situation, and the only way it can be maintained is as a parasite on the EU , as it isn't a self sustaining organism.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

Pragmatic if completely unsound. It (EU) will go pop and fairly soon I suspect. Debatable whether or not we, having left, BREXIT, and sorted ourselves out to become a great trading nation once more with real money in the bank will be big enough to deter the hordes from the Continent intent on a piece if not the whole lot of the action will attempt to invade us yet again. Our allies across the oceans will come to our aid no doubt and in turn take their piece of the action - we're doomed it seems - whatever happens. We might as well do nothing and stay in the EU - surely not. We're made of better stuff than that!

 

[oldgroaner]

I am not going to be educated by anyone. I am
Coming round to
The idea of just quitting telling them to whistle for their money and fining 10% on every German car that is imported into the U.K.
Going off to China and finding a nice Bianchi style bike, name it Eurosport and flood the EU with cheap bikes smuggled in via Dover.. how about a nice weekend in Whitstable and take 2 bikes back to EuroLand , no tariff.
Am going off arrogant Barnier very quickly, nobody 'educates' us.
Tell them we owe them nothing and let them sue as for it,stop all German imports if they want a trade war.
KudosDave

Propaganda works, doesn't it?

 

[oldgroaner]

Pragmatic if completely unsound. It (EU) will go pop and fairly soon I suspect. Debatable whether or not we, having left, BREXIT, and sorted ourselves out to become a great trading nation once more with real money in the bank will be big enough to deter the hordes from the Continent intent on a piece if not the whole lot of the action will attempt to invade us yet again. Our allies across the oceans will come to our aid no doubt and in turn take their piece of the action - we're doomed it seems - whatever happens. We might as well do nothing and stay in the EU - surely not. We're made of better stuff than that!

You don't really believe any of that do you? who is going to sort us out to become a great trading nation again?

Permit me to remind you the only companies that run successfully are Foreign owned.
Why should more Foreigners come to open factories here when they can do that elsewhere such as the Far East or in the EU?.

And no we are not made of better stuff than that which is why we had to join the Common Market in the First Place.

Who is going to transform the dead weights that hold this country back? I'll list them for you.

1. Incompetent Politicians
2. Rapacious short sighted investors
3. Incompetent Managers
4. Greedy Bankers
5. Clueless at Making Trade Deals
6. A woeful infrastructure: we no longer manufacture Aluminium, and precious little Steel,
7. Inadequate Natural Resources
8. Critically weak power generation infrastructure
9. Non existent Merchant Marine
10. Lazy Workers and they are untrained too, as Companies won't pay for it , nor will the Government
11. Education is considered something that people have to buy instead of it being an investment by the state in the Future.

And the Good points we have?

Wishful Thinking and Bloody Minded Optimism, that's all

If an Enemy wants to destroy this Nation of ours, the best way is to leave us alone to complete the job of doing it ourselves.
Cheaper than Nuclear weapons. All the Chinese have to do is wait and collect at the end of a few years.

 

[PeterL]

There's a lot of truth in that. Fortunately I won't be here and neither will you I suspect - just a lot of old hot-air aren't we? The Japanese are good at the long game and in many ways the Chinese deserve better so I don't feel so bad with that scenario. Better than wasting it all on the Europeans.