Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

H

Remember 'Brexit'? This could be interesting but I don't know when the results might be known.

uk-40772332

It seems to me that because the UK government has no plans to attract replacement industry or alternative business in this area, this could be the tip of an iceberg, the effects of which will manifest themselves elsewhere in the UK, post-'Brexit'.

In spite of any assurances given, one wonders as the future carmaking industry changes, and it will, what happens when the Japanese decide that the UK is no longer a viable part of their global business? Large car plants, for example, not only directly employ lots of people, there is an enormous collateral mixed business support system which is mutually dependent on the car industry for its survival.

Areas such as the NE, where the Nissan plant is one of the biggest employers, were previously dependent to a large extent on coal mining and shipbuilding and became virtual wastelands after those industries ceased. I envisage that area will revert to that situation should Nissan pull out of the UK. Perhaps when the effects of 'Brexit' manifest themselves on the population in such a stark and brutal way that loss of employment with no prospect of re-employment becomes reality, then people will better understand how important EU membership with its attendant benefits really is.

Perhaps 'Brexit' will not affect the older generations too greatly in the time they have left but I worry that the young people of this country haven't really grasped fully all the ramifications of a future outside of the EU. That is hardly surprising, I suppose, because of the way the issue has been hyped by government and media, two areas largely occupied by multi-millionaires, so the young might actually believe that 'Brexit' = opportunity.

Interesting times!

Tom

I didn't like the reference in that BBC report of the transfer of eu agencies as spoils. They are the unfortunate consequences of the decision taken by your houses of parliament, and then the disasterous, decision of invoking article 50 before any homework was done.
The EU would have been quite happy for the UK to retain these agencies, provided they operated under ECJ rules..
Now Woosh, I don't think there is a particular fear of the UK becoming Americanised., Unless one is thinking of an American protectorate like Porto Rico. .. a low cost assembly plant. Anyway since you can return to the EU at any stage, by virtue of your French heritage, you cannot be viewed as a typical Englishman.

And Tom, my understanding was that the younger people were the group who wished to remain, and this was twarted by an older generation, who retained hopes from empire.

 

[flecc]

... Yeah, we could do that by putting some kind of propellers in the way and use the fact that as the atmospheric pressure changes it make the air move, this could get those propellers to rotate .... Oh!

You know what they say about sarcasm.

The pressure changes are enough to change sea surface levels so no lack of power. Containing it is a different matter of course.

.. this one is obvious. . Under a head of water, even a plastic bag can become a reservoir. Pumping air in under pressure, stores it.

And also stores atmospheric pressure change.
.
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[KTM Bike Industries UK]

no comment needed....

 

[flecc]

Coming back to Brexit....if a UK person falls in love with a EU person and brings that person back to the UK and gets married,then surely the EU person would automatically be a UK citizen,with a British passport and a EU passport.

At least one minister has said that is not the case after Brexit, also shockingly saying any children would not necessarily be UK citizens.
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[oldtom]

With the recently released film of the ignominious retreat and evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force in 1940 from Dunkirk and the commemoration of the WW1 battle at Passchendaele being newsworthy of late, it seems like an opportune moment to consider why so many Scots have such a dislike and distrust of Westminster government.

Remembering that Scotland voted heavily in favour of remaining in the EU and how close their referendum was on independence from the UK, it might help to understand how that distrust originated. These articles serve to give some insight but should not be regarded in isolation. It is, first, important to understand how the ruling English monarchy and its army treated the Scots, particularly after Culloden in 1745. It is of little use to gloss over the scant written material that has been recorded of the Highland Clearances without deeper research into exactly what took place in Scotland and how that memory has been retained throughout the last 300 years.

These additional reasons from the 20th century perhaps explain the situation today whereby many Scots would wish to eschew Westminster government and would prefer to be independent of the union, participating in the future as a small EU state.



Lions lead by Donkeys: Scotland's Holocaust.

Today is the centenary of the beginning of the Battle of Passchendaele in the First World War. This was another venture by the British Army in which Scottish soldiers suffered disproportionately, and came almost straight after the Battle of Arras.

The Battle of Arras began on 9 April 1917, preceded by a four day bombardment, and lasted until 16 May. There were an estimated 53,000 Scottish casualties in this encounter alone... think about that, that was 3% of the male population of Scotland wiped out before Passchendaele had even got going.

Over the entirety of the 1st World war, an estimated 200,000 Scotsmen died... 10% of the male population. The British Army had basically finished off what the Highland Clearances started... the ethnic cleansing of the Scottish Highlands.

Today, anyone can take a car trip around the Highlands and look at all the empty space and empty villages where once there was an enormous population.


"While Scottish battalions had more than played their part at Loos, in 1915, and on the Somme, in 1916, Arras saw the greatest concentration of Scottish battalions in any of the set-piece battles of the war. With the 9th and 15th (Scottish) Divisions and the 51st (Highland) Division, together with a number of Scottish battalions in other Divisions involved, there were a total of 44 Scottish battalions committed to the battle including eight from The Royal Scots, the 2nd, 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th and 16th. One-third of the 159,000 casualties were Scottish. As well as the Scottish battalions there were seven Canadian battalions with Scottish heritage, including The Canadian Scottish, and The Newfoundland Regiment (the Royal Newfoundland Regiment from 28 September 1917 – the only Regiment to be so honoured during the 1st World War), both of whom were later allied to The Royal Scots."

http://www.theroyalscots.co.uk/823-2/



With much being made recently about Dunkirk, with the release of the movie of the same name, it's worth remembering that Churchill betrayed the Scots Highland regiments, leaving them behind to cover the escape of the BEF.

In the photograph, General Fortune is pictured surrendering to Rommel along with 10,000 Scots soldiers, most of whom had been pressed into service by the landowners of the Highlands on whose land they lived. I've heard stories that they were better treated and fed by the Nazis than they were by their own officers.

The British army has always had a long tradition of sacrificing the expendable Scots. During the First World War, no less than 10% of the male population of Scotland died on the fields of the Somme, (and other battles) a figure unmatched by any other country allied to Britain.


"After Dunkirk, Churchill abandoned the Highlanders at St. Valery."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13411989.After_Dunkirk__Churchill_abandoned_the_Highlanders_at_St__Valery/

Tom

 

[oldtom]

And Tom, my understanding was that the younger people were the group who wished to remain, and this was twarted by an older generation, who retained hopes from empire.

That, indeed, is my understanding also. My difficulty though is, where are the demos to express their outrage? I expect far more in the way of direct action, particularly from the student population, to grab the attention of the government and its propaganda purveyors, the UK mainstream media.

I don't recall the Students' Union making a lot of noise about what is going on and I can't recall seeing any representatives of that body taking part in televised debates or appearing on QT, for example.

That is why I am left to wonder if our young people fully understand all of the implications inherent in this ill-conceived enterprise.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

This fits neatly with my view of the tory party but it comes from someone who seems to share my opinion and is well-versed in utilising social media:

young-conservatives-to-get-new-uniform-fit-for-brexit-britain

Tom

 

[flecc]

That is why I am left to wonder if our young people fully understand all of the implications inherent in this ill-conceived enterprise.

I'm sure they don't, and cannot since they haven't lived through the severe decline of our post WW2 pre-EU era.

Those of us who did know just how bad our future could be outside of the EU.
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[Steb]

H

I didn't like the reference in that BBC report of the transfer of eu agencies as spoils. They are the unfortunate consequences of the decision taken by your houses of parliament, and then the disasterous, decision of invoking article 50 before any homework was done.
The EU would have been quite happy for the UK to retain these agencies, provided they operated under ECJ rules..
Now Woosh, I don't think there is a particular fear of the UK becoming Americanised., Unless one is thinking of an American protectorate like Porto Rico. .. a low cost assembly plant. Anyway since you can return to the EU at any stage, by virtue of your French heritage, you cannot be viewed as a typical Englishman.

And Tom, my understanding was that the younger people were the group who wished to remain, and this was twarted by an older generation, who retained hopes from empire.

"unfortunate consequences" suggests it's an accidental consequence of brexit, as some sort of neutral event. It's stating the obvious, but there is nothing accidental about brexit, much as there isn't about say trumps plummeting popularity.

 

[homemoz]

I am not worried. The generation of my children are Europeans as much as British, the next generation will probably more European than British.
There is no way that, post brexit, this country is going to be americanised, not that I have anything against the USA, I have family living there, but it's just down to the (economical) law of gravity.

Woosh - your apparent faith that the UK will not become americanised really worries me. My reasons are firstly that we are desperate for economical allies & to demonstrate success to deflect any doubts about Brexit. Secondly, I went to public school (albeit via a scholarship) before being asked to leave just before my A'levels after an act of rebellion. The point I am making is that I know first hand what the public school mindset is - one that is shared by many of those in power. The fact that there are those in senior positions who openly express admiration for Trump is deeply concerning. I think that we are in for a very rough ride

 

[Kudoscycles]

At least one minister has said that is not the case after Brexit, also shockingly saying any children would not necessarily be UK citizens.
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If the children will not be UK citizens then you force the parents to bring their children up in the EU.....I believe the EU have already agreed that UK citizens living in Europe will have the same rights as EU citizens,why can't we offer that,why do we always have to be devious,I can see why Barnier doesnt trust Davis.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Interesting.....I never knew this,why wont our government tell us....

But the biggest deception is this: we could easily have taken back control of our borders already under European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to support themselves. In this month’s debate on the House of Lords EU subcommittee report on EU migration, I challenged the government on why we were not availing ourselves of this directive – and I got no response.

Other countries, such as Belgium, regularly repatriate thousands of individuals based on this directive. If the public knew we had this ability, perhaps the fear that exists would dissipate. Why is the government not using it, and why is the British public not aware of it?

Anti-immigration messages and perceptions have been driven by the prime minister and former home secretary Theresa May, as well as the present home secretary, Amber Rudd, who are both economically illiterate when it comes to the necessities of the movement of people, quite apart from being negligent over the security of our country. We could take back control of our borders and re-implement exit checks within months, if the government was determined to do it.

If the British public were aware of the reality of immigration – be it control of our borders, be it potential labour shortages, or be it the ability to repatriate EU citizens – then they would soon realise that the Brexit emperor has no clothes.
Lifted from another article....
KudosDave

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Interesting.....I never knew this,why wont our government tell us....

But the biggest deception is this: we could easily have taken back control of our borders already under European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to support themselves. In this month’s debate on the House of Lords EU subcommittee report on EU migration, I challenged the government on why we were not availing ourselves of this directive – and I got no response.

Other countries, such as Belgium, regularly repatriate thousands of individuals based on this directive. If the public knew we had this ability, perhaps the fear that exists would dissipate. Why is the government not using it, and why is the British public not aware of it?

Anti-immigration messages and perceptions have been driven by the prime minister and former home secretary Theresa May, as well as the present home secretary, Amber Rudd, who are both economically illiterate when it comes to the necessities of the movement of people, quite apart from being negligent over the security of our country. We could take back control of our borders and re-implement exit checks within months, if the government was determined to do it.

If the British public were aware of the reality of immigration – be it control of our borders, be it potential labour shortages, or be it the ability to repatriate EU citizens – then they would soon realise that the Brexit emperor has no clothes.
Lifted from another article....
KudosDave

in a simple image format.

oh, and a new expert summary of the situation from Liverpool Uni, if you've not had enough of experts.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1720988804595183

 

[Kudoscycles]

Would a second referendum be a strong vote to Remain? I am not sure,there are many for whom the economy is not relevant and would still vote to Leave....maybe these people havent experienced any real pain yet?
Maybe we need to wait until redundancies become the norm,benefits dont buy much and Wetherspoons put there prices up. Timing will be critical.
I shouldnt find it amusing but I wonder whether the EU will let us rescind Article 50,hehe ????? Something about between a 'rock and a hard place'.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

Would a second referendum be a strong vote to Remain? I am not sure,there are many for whom the economy is not relevant and would still vote to Leave....maybe these people havent experienced any real pain yet?
Maybe we need to wait until redundancies become the norm,benefits dont buy much and Wetherspoons put there prices up. Timing will be critical.
I shouldnt find it amusing but I wonder whether the EU will let us rescind Article 50,hehe ????? Something about between a 'rock and a hard place'.
KudosDave

Thing is Kudos surely we should find out? Any folk not wanting one simply think they would not get decision they desire, not sure that's quite democracy ?? ( yes,,I know...nothing new there then !)

 

[oldgroaner]

Too late! the process is inevitable and bitter experience the only way to break the foul influence of being exposed for a generation to Propaganda and the only practical remedy is for people to be faced with the consequences of their actions.

Tragically that means that we who opposed this situation have been invited to share the experience.
Afterwards perhaps they will heed Churchill's words

 

[Woosh]

The point I am making is that I know first hand what the public school mindset is - one that is shared by many of those in power. The fact that there are those in senior positions who openly express admiration for Trump is deeply concerning. I think that we are in for a very rough ride

let's hope that most of the public school boys lose their seats after brexit.

 

[Woosh]

Would a second referendum be a strong vote to Remain?

I still don't think it is, otherwise JC would have come off his fence in favour of the SM and/or customs union.

 

[Kudoscycles]

in a simple image format.

oh, and a new expert summary of the situation from Liverpool Uni, if you've not had enough of experts.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1720988804595183

This answers the reason why Amber Rudd has commissioned a survey into EU nationals in the UK and register them.....it is obvious we don't know how many EU nationals are in the uk,what are they doing,are they working,have they left....Rudd was a remainer so the EU directive would be useful if we wanted to stay,whatever happens Remain or Leave,if we are to control immigration we need to know the current status.
Brexit is showing how badly managed our country has become.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

.....it is obvious we don't know how many EU nationals are in the uk,what are they doing,are they working,have they left....

According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS) Labour Force Survey estimates for 2015, there are 3.3 million EU citizens in the UK – 1.6 million from the EU14, 1.3 million from the EU8, 300,000 from Romania and Bulgaria and the remainder from the other EU countries of Malta, Cyprus and Croatia.

But of course it's wrong, since all the British are also EU nationals, so most of the entire resident population are EU citizens living in the UK. Perhaps we should all be kicked out March 2019.
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