Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

"The worst performing major economy on earth right now"

but it was scaremongering, project fear that predicted this wasn't it? and remember we've not even left yet... things are not going to get better.

I'm staggered that some people still seem content to accept the promises of a better tomorrow from the clowns responsible for the EU secession negotiations. All of the economic figures we see filtering through, always in the same direction, were predictable, yet we are expected to believe charlatans that there is a bright, new dawn ahead and we will enjoy free trade with countries around the world on favourable terms.

Like whom? EU countries supply us with a huge amount of those things we need, the things we want and the short distance between us provides a fairly small carbon footprint.

As I can't think of any countries closer to the UK which might provide all the things we currently import from the EU, presumably they will come from far off lands. Can you imagine where?

This whole 'Brexit' business is a nonsense and we are where we are today because stupid people believed stupid people and voted for stupid people. There was no plan - even now there is no plan that the government is prepared to divulge to the nation on the ridiculous excuse that it might lend assistance to the other side in negotiations.

How does that accord with the threat to simply walk away with nothing and pay nothing? If that is a negotiating posture, what is the point of even bothering with these talks?

Before we finally secede, the electorate should be availed of a spreadsheet by a cross-party committee with all that we enjoy currently as EU members and the cost of our membership on one side. On the other side, the best deal our negotiators have achieved with the relevant costings. Following that, a final EU referendum should be conducted on the facts as they are then known.

Of course, that is not going to happen!

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

the rules are complex, you cannot enforce them without risk of challenge on the ground of HR and other treaties' obligations for treating EU citizens like second class.

You mean at the moment they are being well treated? That isn't what I am reading in the news...

The rules are simple, my neighbour has a Romanian (EU) passport but is from Moldova (not EU) and he manages. He has brought his Moldovan wife over and she manages to live here on a 6 month resident card. He did grumble about the amount of paper work but now that it is done he has no problems with the rules and following them. I am on my 3rd 10 year resident card in 40 years and I accept and manage to live by the rules for non EU residents...

EDIT

My eldest applied for NZ citizenship last month, the form has 8 pages (plus extra for blah blah text), French resident card application (EU or non EU person, same form) 4 pages including instructions last time I did one, UK citizenship 85 pages...

What does that say about the UK? It is the UK making complex rules not the EU. In fact I think a lot of countries in the EU have a special simplification service working to make dealings with the administration simpler, I know France does.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

the rules are complex, you cannot enforce them without risk of challenge on the ground of HR and other treaties' obligations for treating EU citizens like second class.
You can watch the interview with a Cambridge university professor in European laws discussing it with Jo Coburn on BBC2 Daily Politics today.
The fact is simple: our public services and farmers need and welcome EU immigrants, most of ordinary people don't. So our government has no incentive to want to deport any EU worker.

Well yes.. but you've kinda undone you're own statement with the last bit.

"want to deport any EU worker"

Most people seem to want to send the "benefits claimants" back, not the workers. The current rules allow us to do this.

And its not just farmers, and public services... its pretty much the entire tourist / hotel / entertainments sector, plus universities etc etc. The 3 million aren't just working picking strawberries.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Well yes.. but you've kinda undone you're own statement with the last bit.

"want to deport any EU worker"

Most people seem to want to send the "benefits claimants" back, not the workers. The current rules allow us to do this.

And its not just farmers, and public services... its pretty much the entire tourist / hotel / entertainments sector, plus universities etc etc. The 3 million aren't just working picking strawberries.

That is a hell of a lot of strawberries!

 

[Woosh]

Most people seem to want to send the "benefits claimants" back, not the workers. The current rules allow us to do this.

it's not so straightforward.
I think sometime ago, the coalition government tried to cut child benefit to EU migrants where their children (and their mothers) have gone back to their country of origin. The fathers took the UK government to the ECJ and won on the basis that UK children can emigrate and their mothers still receive benefit.
If we want to tighten the rules, we have to start with our own citizens.
Like having ID cards to access benefits and the NHS.

 

[Zlatan]

KTM / Tom
There is little point criticizing individuals when neither the government or whats more to the point , the opposition , are offering any policies whatsoever with regard to postponing, cancelling or even softening Brexit.
We have just debated the unbelievable stance JC is taking. The criticismms can only be levelled at what happened 13 months ago at individuals. If some party was putting forward anything drastically different to TM, then yes individuals could be criticized for not supporting them. As it is either those still supporting remain or leavers who have changed their minds have absolutely nobody to represent their views. That should be the criticism.
If I were a remainer I,d be seriously annoyed at the fact my views are completely ignored by both government and its oppostition.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

More great news on how well the UK is performing on hearing the great new's we'll be free of Europe.

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN19L0XG?utm_source=applenews

British consumers have suffered the longest decline in their spending power since the 1970s, raising questions about whether the Bank of England really is likely to raise interest rates any time soon.

Official data published on Friday confirmed that the world's fifth-biggest economy went into a sharp slowdown in early 2017.

While there was a hint of an improvement in the dominant services sector as the second quarter began, the picture was bleak for consumers who are Britain's main drivers of growth.

They are facing the double hit of accelerating inflation, caused in large part by the fall in the pound since the Brexit vote, and slowing wage growth.

The Office for National Statistics said household disposable income, adjusted for inflation, fell for a third straight quarter. That was the worst run in 40 years and took the household savings ratio down to an all-time low.

Consumers have suffered a sharp loss of confidence, according to the first GfK survey published since the inconclusive outcome of this month's national election.

The weak data comes just as some policymakers at the BoE have started to signal that a first rate hike in a decade might be approaching in order to curb the sharp rise in inflation.

 

[oldgroaner]

KTM / Tom
There is little point criticizing individuals when neither the government or whats more to the point , the opposition , are offering any policies whatsoever with regard to postponing, cancelling or even softening Brexit.
We have just debated the unbelievable stance JC is taking. The criticismms can only be levelled at what happened 13 months ago at individuals. If some party was putting forward anything drastically different to TM, then yes individuals could be criticized for not supporting them. As it is either those still supporting remain or leavers who have changed their minds have absolutely nobody to represent their views. That should be the criticism.
If I were a remainer I,d be seriously annoyed at the fact my views are completely ignored by both government and its oppostition.

Actually I can take that a little further and ask Whether the whole lot of our politicians are actually interested or aware of the consequences of ploughing ahead with Brexit when it is actually only marginally more popular than the status Quo.

For if it makes a Financial success, that is only as I have pointed out a fudge that will keep us going as we watch Europe go in a direction that is ultimately to our great disadvantage and we have no control or influence over.
It will morph into the intended superstate and the situation for us could not be worse, as we will be dwarfed by it's power and subservient to it.
A situation that was understood hundreds of years ago and we have always fought to prevent hegemony in Europe happening.
Yet here we are actually creating the very thing we have always dreaded.

That is bad enough, but worse if Brexit fails to deliver... not only will the Remainers be just a little Miffed, but very Few of the leave Voters will recall their enthusiasm for it and simply join in the general Mayhem that is highly likely to break out.
The Consequences should be striking fear into all the politicians, but it seems not.
The only possible conclusions are these

1. They really don't care whatever happens
2. They do care but are too stupid to see it coming.
3. They are hoping that an upsurge of public anger will allow them to cancel Brexit and become popular, saving the day by saying "This proves Brexit is no Longer the Will of the people and we are hereby revoking Article 50"

Option 2 Works for me, but obviously Option 3 would be the best for all of us.

 

[Croxden]

More great news on how well the UK is performing on hearing the great new's we'll be free of Europe.

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN19L0XG?utm_source=applenews

British consumers have suffered the longest decline in their spending power since the 1970s, raising questions about whether the Bank of England really is likely to raise interest rates any time soon.

Official data published on Friday confirmed that the world's fifth-biggest economy went into a sharp slowdown in early 2017.

While there was a hint of an improvement in the dominant services sector as the second quarter began, the picture was bleak for consumers who are Britain's main drivers of growth.

They are facing the double hit of accelerating inflation, caused in large part by the fall in the pound since the Brexit vote, and slowing wage growth.

The Office for National Statistics said household disposable income, adjusted for inflation, fell for a third straight quarter. That was the worst run in 40 years and took the household savings ratio down to an all-time low.

Consumers have suffered a sharp loss of confidence, according to the first GfK survey published since the inconclusive outcome of this month's national election.

The weak data comes just as some policymakers at the BoE have started to signal that a first rate hike in a decade might be approaching in order to curb the sharp rise in inflation.

Was the slogan on the back of the man at the end of the video part of our Brexit negotiators new uniform?

 

[oldtom]

This sums up recent events.....to music!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=650705445134410

Tom

 

[Danidl]

it's not so straightforward.
I think sometime ago, the coalition government tried to cut child benefit to EU migrants where their children (and their mothers) have gone back to their country of origin. The fathers took the UK government to the ECJ and won on the basis that UK children can emigrate and their mothers still receive benefit.
If we want to tighten the rules, we have to start with our own citizens.
Like having ID cards to access benefits and the NHS.

I honestly cannot see anything wrong with having national ID cards, with biometric data

 

[oldgroaner]

A thought on the Democratic Principle that the "Will of the People" results in election by Majority support from the Independent today
"
What the Prime Minister derided as a “coalition of chaos” – Labour, the SNP, the Liberal Democrats, the Greens and Plaid Cymru – secured nearly 53 per cent of the vote.

Her own shabby little coalition with the DUP, constructed to get her spartan, Brexit-dominated, two-year agenda over its first fence, managed to win the support of little more than 43 per of the electorate. Even Ukip’s sorry little band of supporters would only get her to 45 per cent."

Disrgarding the missing 2% it is hard to reconcile these figures with Democratic principles.

 

[Woosh]

I honestly cannot see anything wrong with having national ID cards, with biometric data

that has probably something to do with the Brits refusing to carry any kind of official ID card and yet, they carry happily a wallet full of credit cards, club membership cards etc.
All the ID card needs to have is a pin and an encrypted link to their passport application file.

 

[Woosh]

A thought on the Democratic Principle that the "Will of the People" results in election by Majority support from the Independent today
"
What the Prime Minister derided as a “coalition of chaos” – Labour, the SNP, the Liberal Democrats, the Greens and Plaid Cymru – secured nearly 53 per cent of the vote.

Her own shabby little coalition with the DUP, constructed to get her spartan, Brexit-dominated, two-year agenda over its first fence, managed to win the support of little more than 43 per of the electorate. Even Ukip’s sorry little band of supporters would only get her to 45 per cent."

Disrgarding the missing 2% it is hard to reconcile these figures with Democratic principles.

Don't blame TM for her intransigence on pulling out of the ECJ.
Most people won't want the ECJ to have superiority over our own courts.
If you can make the general public see sense on this question, brexit would probably have never happened.

 

[oldgroaner]

Don't blame TM for her intransigence on pulling out of the ECJ.
Most people won't want the ECJ to have superiority over our own courts.
If you can make the general public see sense on this question, brexit would probably have never happened.

The problem is most people don't realise is that the ECJ is the only thing stopping May and co imposing an even more rigid Police state, backed by laws reducing their Human Rights to oppress them!

 

[Woosh]

OG & KTM,

I watched Question Time last Thursday. The audience came from Hastings.
One 50-ish woman in the audience put up her hand to give her view on brexit. 'Did you vote?'
No but for hundreds of years, this country is best at everything.
We joined up with others and it's a load of rubbish.
We should be back where we were, on our own.

She is one person you need to convince.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08wmv53/question-time-29062017?t=23m30s

 

[oldgroaner]

OG & KTM,

I watched Question Time last Thursday. The audience came from Hastings.
One 50-ish woman in the audience put up her hand to give her view on brexit. 'Did you vote?'
No but for hundreds of years, this country is best at everything.
We joined up with others and it's a load of rubbish.
We should be back where we were, on our own.

She is one person you need to convince.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08wmv53/question-time-29062017?t=23m30s

Obviously this woman is ignorant of History, in every case we were not "on our own" For most of our History she and her contemporaries were treated like serfs too.
She believes in a "Golden Age" does she, and wants it back, and wants us to be on our own?
Time for this foolish woman to face a memorable lesson: she will learn to her cost what being so entails.
Bitter personal experience should convince this foolish woman of her mistake, though to be honest, it's more likely that the press are liable to find her willing and able to be convinced black is white.
Her mistaken arrogance will make her easy meat for them.
The only person who will change her mind is her, and frankly I don't expect that to happen, do you?

 

[oldgroaner]

Don't blame TM for her intransigence on pulling out of the ECJ.
Most people won't want the ECJ to have superiority over our own courts.
If you can make the general public see sense on this question, brexit would probably have never happened.

No comment on my post? just this new one on a different topic?

 

[Zlatan]

On the same programme was the idiot Mendoza, who along with all the other extreme left fools has ruined any chance of a reputable , sensible image for Labour movement.
Unfortunately the public simply see all socialists as represented by these people. It even happens on here. If you aim any criticism at JC ,Abbot, Canary ( JC,s mouthpiece?) or AAV you get called a pink Tory.
Utter rubbish.
When the labour party looses its association with such folk and adopts moderate policies and starts opposing the government ( which it never does) it will get back in power.
And before anyone jumps to defend Mendoza/ Canary watch the programme. She was shouted down by audience and I wondered if she may even be asked to leave. She came over terrible and did some more damage to labour movement. Look what voters thought of her and her ideas..
I wonder why Millibands dropped off scene ?? The answer was on that programme.

 

[Woosh]

No comment on my post? just this new one on a different topic?

sorry, I got mixed up a little bit.
I started thinking of answering the point about the 'Will of the people' - my starting point is that this will is based essentially on the popularity of the nationalist view that if we accept the ECJ, we accept their rule. As we shall not be ruled by the Europeans, that led me to the essential demand of the nationalists, which is getting out of the jurisdiction of the ECJ and why TM is stuck on it.
There are a lot of voters who only need one or two convincing arguments to make up their mind. It is difficult for remainers to explain why they accept the ECJ.