Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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Trouble with improving teams flecc is others improve too. In football as politics there is no time like the present. This election will be looked back on as a missed opportunity.
Will they get in next time ? Nothing they have done gives reason to think so., apart from bribing young vote ?? TM handed them a winning opportunity. They didn't utilise it. Will they be given another such chance and will they take advantage ? Things need to change to make me think so.
I completely disagree and think you are misreading every aspect.

They've made a great platform for them to take off from next time, while Theresa May has left her own reputation in ruins and harmed her party's prospects. The Tories problem is that they paraded all the other possible leaders during Brexit and they too damaged themselves. So who are they going to replace May with who will match either the reinvigorated Jeremy Corbyn or David Miliband?
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Zlatan

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I completely disagree and think you are misreading every aspect.

They've made a great platform for them to take off from next time, while Theresa May has left her own reputation in ruins and harmed her party's prospects. The Tories problem is that they paraded all the other possible leaders during Brexit and they too damaged themselves. So who are they going to replace May with who will match either the reinvigorated Jeremy Corbyn or David Miliband?
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Time will tell Flecc.
 
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Croxden

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Yes, coming second in a football match is losing.

But coming second in a multi-competitor election as Jeremy Corbyn's Labour did is a success. It's why podiums have three positions for the successful competitors in multi-competitor events.

And how about Kensington? That's always been Conservative, even their ancient Britons painted themselves blue with woad.

But now astonishly it's been won by Labour for the first time ever and hardly anyone can believe it.

That is an amazing success for Labour and a huge slap in the face for the Tories.
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But the yin yang of things, Stoke South went Tory.
 
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Danidl

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Think you`ll find thats the IRA murdering scum that Corbyn & Co. cosys up to,

View attachment 19664

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hope that doesn`t upset your sensitivities.
.. as another citizen of Ireland, I would hope that we can leave much of this morass of murder, corruption behind us. Neither side.. IRA and it's fellow travellers, INLA, etc or the loyalist murder gangs , UVF, UDA etc , or the British security forces involved have a proud record. There were heroes on each side and there were also murdering scum.
If you read the actual text of that Labour proposal , it does not differ much from the Belfast agreement.
Had the special forces suceeded in arresting rather than shooting the loughgall participants, as a police force should , it would have robbed the IRA of propaganda value. Remember if you can that Northern Ireland was not designated as a war zone and the UK government continually insisted that there was no war.


I am old enough to have followed the whole sorry mess from the summer of 1969, and know that there is enough guilt on all sides, from the gerrymandering of votes, the attacks on burntollot bridge. , the welcomed arrival of the a British army, The obscenity of the Provo proxibombs, , the creation of gettos and tribal allegiances on both sides of the divide. etc etc , so let's not go back.
Unless some people are prepared to attack concensus and analyse and maybe even talk to the other side , people like John Hume , David Trimble, and yes probably Corbyn, there can only be one outcome.
 
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tommie

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.. as another citizen of Ireland, I would hope that we can leave much of this morass of murder, corruption behind us. Neither side.. IRA and it's fellow travellers, INLA, etc or the loyalist murder gangs , UVF, UDA etc , or the British security forces involved have a proud record. There were heroes on each side and there were also murdering scum.
If you read the actual text of that Labour proposal , it does not differ much from the Belfast agreement.
Had the special forces suceeded in arresting rather than shooting the loughgall participants, as a police force should , it would have robbed the IRA of propaganda value. Remember if you can that Northern Ireland was not designated as a war zone and the UK government continually insisted that there was no war.
Well if you wanted to leave all this behind as you say you were pretty quick out of the blocks to bad-mouth the largest democratic political party here in Northern Ireland with some shabby republican inspired web-site rubbish.
Maybe you can recall when Arlene Fosters dad was shot in the head by the IRA at their farm, also when she was in a school bus in Enniskillen that was blown up by an IRA booby trap? It didn`t suit you to mention that at the same time did it??

So just for the record who were the `heroes` you mention on the IRA terrorist side?

As for the Loughgall incident, as you well know the SAS were in charge of that operation, any police that were there were inside the police station about to be blown to pieces by IRA men armed to the teeth, plus a JCB with an oil drum bomb on board. Fortunately for all of us the SAS didn`t arrest the terrorists in this instance.
 

Danidl

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Well if you wanted to leave all this behind as you say you were pretty quick out of the blocks to bad-mouth the largest democratic political party here in Northern Ireland with some shabby republican inspired web-site rubbish.
Maybe you can recall when Arlene Fosters dad was shot in the head by the IRA at their farm, also when she was in a school bus in Enniskillen that was blown up by an IRA booby trap? It didn`t suit you to mention that at the same time did it??

So just for the record who were the `heroes` you mention on the IRA terrorist side?

As for the Loughgall incident, as you well know the SAS were in charge of that operation, any police that were there were inside the police station about to be blown to pieces by IRA men armed to the teeth, plus a JCB with an oil drum bomb on board. Fortunately for all of us the SAS didn`t arrest the terrorists in this instance.
A
Well if you wanted to leave all this behind as you say you were pretty quick out of the blocks to bad-mouth the largest democratic political party here in Northern Ireland with some shabby republican inspired web-site rubbish.
Maybe you can recall when Arlene Fosters dad was shot in the head by the IRA at their farm, also when she was in a school bus in Enniskillen that was blown up by an IRA booby trap? It didn`t suit you to mention that at the same time did it??

So just for the record who were the `heroes` you mention on the IRA terrorist side?

As for the Loughgall incident, as you well know the SAS were in charge of that operation, any police that were there were inside the police station about to be blown to pieces by IRA men armed to the teeth, plus a JCB with an oil drum bomb on board. Fortunately for all of us the SAS didn`t arrest the terrorists in this instance.
.. I have no need to refer to websites to recall the last 50 years, I lived it. So no neither did I refer to those incidences of where the Miami showband were slaughtered or the assassination attempt on Bernedette Devlin, foiled only by a British soldier with medical expertise, or the carving of the initials UVF on the chest of Austin Curries wife or all the other viciousness perpetrated by both sides, including the tit for tat murders carried out in co down .
Or the cycle of violence triggered by the SAS in Gibraltar.
I refuse to call any of the perpetrators irrespective of affiliation terrorists. A colleague of mine once put it very clearly as a piece of grammar.
I am a patriot
You are a nationalist ( unionist)
He is a terrorist.



Perspective is everything.
Just for the record I am not and never was a supporter or apologist of the IRA in any of its guises.
The only point I was making is let's move on. The past of 30 years ago is another country, and cannot be revisited.. We cannot change the past, but we can the future.
 
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oldgroaner

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Think you`ll find thats the IRA murdering scum that Corbyn & Co. cosys up to,

View attachment 19664

View attachment 19665
View attachment 19666
hope that doesn`t upset your sensitivities.
And in return I hope this doesn't upset yours.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2015/09/if-jeremy-corbyn-was-wrong-northern-ireland-so-was-nelson-mandela
Here is an extract
"
As a classic “campaigning backbencher”, Jeremy Corbyn holds radical views on a range of issues that sit outside the comfort zone of mainstream politics, particularly about the Israel-Palestine conflict and the broader Middle East. These are seen by his critics as emblematic of his naiveté, raising questions about his suitability for high office.

Likewise, his unflinching support of Irish republicans’ aspiration for a united Ireland, is another association routinely thrown at him. So in recent weeks he has refused to condemn the Provisional IRA in a BBC interview and even been criticised for sharing a coffee with Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, Martin McGuinness and Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams.

While Corbyn has certainly been unwise in some of the remarks he has made about the Middle East (notably his response that Bin Laden’s death was “a tragedy”) his position on Ireland should not be included on the charge sheet against him. Two factors are pertinent here. First, was Corbyn’s support for Sinn Fein and engagement with Irish issues legitimate or not and, secondly, did it serve any useful purpose?
It was certainly the road less travelled during the 1980s, when the Provisional IRA’s British bombing campaign was at its height, but it was entirely legitimate for Corbyn and others, take an interest in the pressing affairs of Northern Ireland, especially as we now know that Margaret Thatcher’s government was engaged in secret talks with the IRA from the time of the Hunger Strikes.

The problem is that Westminster has traditionally paid scant regard to events in Northern Ireland. It was, for too long, the British state’s dirty little secret. Indeed, until direct rule was imposed in 1972, as the place literally went up in smoke, Members of Parliament could not even table questions about goings on there.

It was legitimate, too, for Corbyn and others to have a point of view about events there. Northern Ireland is a zero-sum issue. When it boils down to it, you are either in favour of the maintenance of the union with Northern Ireland, or you favour Irish unity. It really is as straightforward as that. Indeed, Corbyn’s position was, and perhaps still is, common enough around the party and in line with Labour’s official policy at the time of “unity by consent”.

Turning to the second question: has Corbyn’s interest in Northern Irish affairs done any good? With the benefit of historical perspective, the answer is, yes, it probably has. Back in 1981, following the Hunger Strikes when ten republican prisoners starved to death over their contention that there were political prisoners, not ordinary criminals, Sinn Fein tentatively embarked on a strategy which would eventually bloom into the peace process.
Bobby Sands, the first hunger striker to die, famously became Member of Parliament for Fermanagh and South Tyrone in a by-election while still in jail. This showed to republican modernisers like Gerry Adams that Sinn Fein could graduate from being the Provisional IRA’s front office into a distinct political force.

At the party’s 1981 conference, republican Danny Morrison summed up the new approach: “Who here really believes that we can win the war through the ballot box? But will anyone here object if, with a ballot paper in one hand and the Armalite in the other, we take power in Ireland?”



This twin-track strategy eventually led to Gerry Adams secret dialogue with the SDLP leader, John Hume in the late 1980s and the gradual creation of a space where republicans could leave the gun behind. But it took time and a great deal of effort to switch this twin-track approach on to a single, exclusively political line.

Engagement of the kind offered by Corbyn and many others on Labour’s left during the 1980s spurred on those in Sinn Fein who wanted to go down the political route. Indeed, without such support, the balance may well have tipped towards the militarists who wanted to make “the long war” against the British state even longer.

Like many on the left, Corbyn saw Ireland as a classic struggle for national self-determination against colonial rule. But he was by no means alone. Nelson Mandela may be the safest of safe options for any politician responding to the question “who do you most admire in politics,” but he was also a strong supporter of Irish republicanism.

It was an association that weathered his transformation into international statesman. Indeed, Gerry Adams was part of the honour guard for Mandela’s funeral. No British politicians or anti-apartheid activists were granted similar status.

So Corbyn’s record on Irish affairs is more benign that his detractors insist. But for those who still regard him as a dupe in sympathising with Irish republicanism, it is only fair to point out that at least he was in illustrious company. ."
That was from The New Statesman Newspaper, which quite frankly is less inclined to take an extreme view than the ones these recent links have been pasted from.

Peace in Northern Ireland is a precious thing,and for the UK Government to seek to prop itself up in power by alliance with one of the Factional Groups still tainted by association with those dark day unwise to say the least.
When in comes to peace in Northern Ireland, "Let sleeping Dogs lie" is by far the wisest course.
 
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oldgroaner

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From the Sunday Express
"
Downing Street chaos: Statement on DUP agreement ‘made in error with talks still ongoing'
DOWNING Street has descended further into chaos after it erroneously issued a statement saying the DUP had agreed to the principles of a deal to back the Tories, according to reports."
Oh Dear, oh dear...
 

oldgroaner

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Looks like the Daily Star don't fancy Boris as PM
"
Boris Johnson removed London Bridge barriers because they were 'ugly'
"
By Isobel Dickinson / Published 11th June 2017
GETTY

SCRAPPED: Ex-mayor Bojo demolished safety barriers in 2010 to make way for cyclists
The guardrails at the tourist hotspot – where three people were run over and killed in last week’s terror attack – were taken down in 2010.

The move left pedestrians vulnerable to vehicles veering off the road.

It was part of a campaign by the ex-Mayor and transport chiefs to make the streets less “cluttered” and safer for cyclists.
 
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oldtom

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Perspective is everything.
Just for the record I am not and never was a supporter or apologist of the IRA in any of its guises.
The only point I was making is let's move on. The past of 30 years ago is another country, and cannot be revisited.. We cannot change the past, but we can the future.
Thank you for that 'Danidl' and may I say your recent posts on this topic by way of response to the blinkered view of our new correspondent, 'tommie' are very powerful.

One side of my parentage was born and bred in Ireland and throughout my childhood, I gleaned much of what it was like to be Irish with great-grandparents and relatives born into the great famine of the mid-19th century and grandparents and a parent who lived through the Easter rising.

The blinkered views of the colonialist community in Ireland are extremely unhelpful in the progress of the human race generally on the island of Ireland but I suspect 'tommie' gained his prejudices, as have many others, from the propaganda they have been fed, whether it came from the British media, the British government or the British military......or a combination of the relentless bombardment by all three.

We British have a history of empire creation through force and in that process have treated other peoples with untold nastiness and brutality. Sadly, there are many around today who still retain the misguided belief that we have some god-given right to steal other people's lands and territory, then rape those countries to satisfy our greed and need for wealth creation.

This witty animation by Eddie Izzard for an American audience is derived from truth. The same elements of British society which grabbed territory in various parts of the world including Ireland are still around today. We refer to them as the aristocracy and the monarchy. They are represented politically by the tory party.


Tom
 
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tillson

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From the Sunday Express
"
Downing Street chaos: Statement on DUP agreement ‘made in error with talks still ongoing'
DOWNING Street has descended further into chaos after it erroneously issued a statement saying the DUP had agreed to the principles of a deal to back the Tories, according to reports."
Oh Dear, oh dear...
So as we thought, "the only person capable of leading BREXIT negotiations" has severely weakened her own negotiating position with the DUP by going public on a deal before even engaging in any meaningful talks. Great.

My favourite quote from the newspapers today is;

"Things went badly wrong for Theresa May on two occasion. Firstly when she didn't turn up and, secondly when she did turn up." That just about sums her up.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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But the yin yang of things, Stoke South went Tory.
I don't know how Stoke South stands in the hierarchy, but if the Tories were asked to list constituencies they'd never lose, Kensington would be one of the first they thought of.

Together with alongside Chelsea with which it's often paired, it's a very upper crust rich area. Think Harrods and you've got the picture.
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Danidl

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Looks like the Daily Star don't fancy Boris as PM
"
Boris Johnson removed London Bridge barriers because they were 'ugly'
"
By Isobel Dickinson / Published 11th June 2017
GETTY

SCRAPPED: Ex-mayor Bojo demolished safety barriers in 2010 to make way for cyclists
The guardrails at the tourist hotspot – where three people were run over and killed in last week’s terror attack – were taken down in 2010.

The move left pedestrians vulnerable to vehicles veering off the road.

It was part of a campaign by the ex-Mayor and transport chiefs to make the streets less “cluttered” and safer for cyclists.
Oh dear does that mean that next weeks headline will be" cyclists to blame for London bridge killings ".
I don't think in fairness Boris should be castigated for a decision made 10 years ago
 
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oldgroaner

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Oh dear does that mean that next weeks headline will be" cyclists to blame for London bridge killings ".
I don't think in fairness Boris should be castigated for a decision made 10 years ago
I did point out that this was the star, not condoning its viewpoint
 

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