Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

The Brexit Goodness is flowing already
"
Chemicals giant Ineos 'exploiting Brexit to relax climate change laws', documents suggest
Following industry lobbying, the Government last week announced a £100m-per-year exemption from environmental taxes for the firms that use the most energy
"
Guy Shrubsole, Friends of the Earth campaigner, said: “Ineos are exploiting what they see as an opportunity in Brexit to seek further exemptions from environmental regulations. What other companies are seeking to cynically use Brexit as a chance to weaken vital social and environmental protections?

“The Leave campaign urged voters to 'take back control' - not to cede power to vast multinationals engaged in shadowy lobbying operations.”


Following a concerted effort by Ineos and other chemicals firms the Government last week announced a £100m-per-year exemption from the carbon trading scheme for the companies that use the most energy, to add to the £250m in tax breaks it had already granted."

And where and who one asks is the £350 million pounds tax revenue hole to be plugged by?
Go on, guess!
Here's a terrific idea!
Lets put the tax back on Ineos and fund the NHS instead!
Perhaps we could have that painted on the side of a Red Bus?

 

[oldgroaner]

No Plan and there never will be it seems
"No evidence to back Theresa May's claim that 'no Brexit deal is better than bad deal', finds Commons report
Report from the Exiting the European Union Committee adds that officials should set out what contingency planning is taking place and urges the Government to carry out an economic and legal assessment of leaving the EU with no deal
"
The Government has produced no evidence to support Theresa May’s assertion that “no deal is better than a bad deal” in the Brexit negotiations, a new Commons report has concluded.

Given the admission by Brexit Secretary David Davis last month that the Government had carried out no economic assessment of crashing out of the EU without a deal, MPs on the Exiting the European Committee said the Prime Minister’s threat “is unsubstantiated”.

The 155-page report adds that officials should set out what contingency planning is taking place and urges the Government to undertake an economic and legal assessment of leaving the EU with no deal."

Nothing to see here, move along

 

[Woosh]

You have confirmed my statement that he uttered a lie without the intent to lie.

OG, itr's OK to disagree but you don't need to be illogical.
I did not want to go off topic as I considered your post an insult to me, not an argument. I can't see what good to dwell on insults.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG, itr's OK to disagree but you don't need to be illogical.
I did not want to go off topic as I considered your post an insult to me, not an argument. I can't see what good to dwell on insults.

It was not intended as an insult to you, so if it was peceived as such, then I apologise.
Nonetheless the logic I employed was correct, people do repeat lies unknowingly and it doesn't make them liars themselves.
I really can't see how you can argue with that.

 

[Woosh]

Nonetheless the logic I employed was correct, people do repeat lies

That point is illogical.
You know perfectly well which 52% and 48% I referred to. There is no need for more specifications unless you weren't in the country in the last 9 months.

You, oldtom and flecc continue to fight the last battle. It's OK but there is no need to continue with the assertion that brexiters are liars and idiots.

BTW, I am not even a brexiter, I voted to remain but I changed my mind.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Where will the loyalty of remainers lie when the negotiation fails and it becomes clear that the EU does not want brexit to succeed?

I'm shocked you even have to ask this question?

I think everyone on here, and certainly in remain groups and meetings I've been to, there has been a consistent understanding from way way before the referendum that the EU as a club, can only continue to survive if Brexit is seen to be bad for the UK, so others won't want to leave.

This is inevitable because.

As members of the club we got A LOT of benefits in return for our membership fee. So now we're leaving we will be worse off, that's a simple inevitability.

As pointed out this week:

EU won't pursue harsh divorce settlement because 'Brexit is punitive enough'

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/donald-tusk-brexit-statement-watch-10131587

And as the EU has said repeatedly, this isn't new news, its just the UK, mainly the leavers realising that what they have been sold isn't possible. They were told, repeatedly that we were being sold an impossible dream.

The EU confirming that again and again and again and again and again doesn't make them bad. They have a responsibility to their members, in fact they are their members.

I still think most leavers think the EU is some big "foreign" body forcing things upon its members, not realising the EU is its members.

 

[oldgroaner]

That point is illogical.
You know perfectly well which 52% and 48% I referred to. There is no need for more specifications unless you weren't in the country in the last 9 months.

You, oldtom and flecc continue to fight the last battle. It's OK but there is no need to continue with the assertion that brexiters are liars and idiots.

BTW, I am not even a brexiter, I voted to remain but I changed my mind.

</Joke warning!> Sorry Theresa!<\Joke warning>

 

[oldgroaner]

That point is illogical.
You know perfectly well which 52% and 48% I referred to. There is no need for more specifications unless you weren't in the country in the last 9 months.

You, oldtom and flecc continue to fight the last battle. It's OK but there is no need to continue with the assertion that brexiters are liars and idiots.

BTW, I am not even a brexiter, I voted to remain but I changed my mind.

It is no "last battle" it is as Farage said, had the result gone the other by the same margin
Work in progress.
And as to Brexiters being liars and idiots, if you care to check back the only ones I have accused of being either are politicians , journalists, and individuals where it was richly deserved.
I have throughout described pro Brexit Voters as misinformed, which is rather different.

 

[Woosh]

I'm shocked you even have to ask this question?

Why? The EU is between a rock and a hard place just as we are ourselves in.
If we fail to get a deal, the inevitable question is 'Why did we fail to get a deal?' then the negotiation stance of the EU will be questioned, was the EU more concerned about preventing other members to follow brexit?
Remainers will see that accepting the logic of the EU is accepting the premise that the UK must be punished to stop others, then brexit is not so much an act of self harm as a battle between principles.
Where will the remainers' loyalty lie?
With the EU superstate or with their compatriots?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Why? The EU is between a rock and a hard place just as we are ourselves in.
If we fail to get a deal, the inevitable question is 'Why did we fail to get a deal?' then the negotiation stance of the EU will be questioned, was the EU more concerned about preventing other members to follow brexit?
Remainers will see that accepting the logic of the EU is accepting the premise that the UK must be punished to stop others, then brexit is not so much an act of self harm as a battle between principles.
Where will the remainers' loyalty lie?
With the EU superstate or with their compatriots?

Us leaving is punishment, they don't need to do anything....

or are you seriously expecting us to be able to leave the club and keep all the benefits?

You're also assuming that "remainers" don't consider EU citizen's their compatriots.

Personally I don't view a line in the sand anywhere to do with my geography. I'm a citizen of Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, Yorkshire, the North, England, Great Britain, UK, EU, Europe, the World. So my compatriots are different depending on where you're drawing the line.

 

[oldgroaner]

Why? The EU is between a rock and a hard place just as we are ourselves in.
If we fail to get a deal, the inevitable question is 'Why did we fail to get a deal?' then the negotiation stance of the EU will be questioned, was the EU more concerned about preventing other members to follow brexit?
Remainers will see that accepting the logic of the EU is accepting the premise that the UK must be punished to stop others, then brexit is not so much an act of self harm as a battle between principles.
Where will the remainers' loyalty lie?
With the EU superstate or with their compatriots?

It is the duty of the EU to protect it's members, and it will.
Had we been in the situation were France were leaving and we were not, we would be insisting that the EU looked after out interests first.
Your argument is simply nonsense.
The loyalty with the Remainers is that the EU should ensure it remains a viable entity that will accept us back when we correct our mistake.

 

[Woosh]

You're also assuming that "remainers" don't consider EU citizen's their compatriots.

That's correct, the EU is still not a country in the sense of the UN membership.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

That's correct, the EU is still not a country in the sense of the UN membership.

Yes, but we're not talking about countries, you were saying about compatriots and since 1992, we've all been EU citizens as a result of the Maastricht Treaty.

 

[Woosh]

The loyalty with the Remainers is that the EU should ensure it remains a viable entity that will accept us back when we correct our mistake.

In today's posts, you and KTM start from the principle that the EU is right to do everything it can to protect its membership.
Let's consider the statement 'The EU is a force for good'.
You and KTM consider that statement true, mathematically as an axiom.
Is it entirely logical?
I don't think so.
The question of loyalty is when the battle is on principles, not the nitty-gritty bargaining.

 

[Woosh]

Yes, but we're not talking about countries, you were saying about compatriots and since 1992, we've all been EU citizens as a result of the Maastricht Treaty.

The EU citizens who are not British are not part of brexit.
The word compatriots is taken to mean the UK electorate either in a second referendum or the next general election.
My question is: where would the loyalty of remainer compatriots lie if it is a battle between the EU principle of defending its membership against the principle of democracy and self determination of their brexiter compatriots? Would they side with their brexit compatriots or with the EU?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

In today's posts, you and KTM start from the principle that the EU is right to do everything it can to protect its membership.
Let's consider the statement 'The EU is a force for good'.
You and KTM consider that statement true, mathematically as an axiom.
Is it entirely logical?
I don't think so.
The question of loyalty is when the battle is on principles, not the nitty-gritty bargaining.

Firstly, you have to acknowledge the EU is its members, so it has to do everything it can for the good of its members as a whole.

Regarding the statement, "The EU is a force for good" I'm not sure I'd wholeheartedly sign up that. I'd argue that in most cases its probably a better force than national governments on their own. I'd also argue that being a member is better for the UK, than not being a member.

I don't view the EU as some utopia, I'm not naive. But equally I do think we should be in it, and helping shape it for the benefit of all its citizens.

I don't see how I can be loyal to a UK government that I fundamentally think is wrong, I'm not loyal just because of a fluke of birth geography. My loyalty has to be earned, and I'm afraid TM doesn't have it.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The EU citizens who are not British are not part of brexit.

Missed this bit..... I'm afraid they are. Its a divorce and a new relationship. Our new relationship with the EU will be decided by the EU and then we decide if we will accept it or not. The EU is its citizens, so they are very much part of this, and Brexit as a whole. They are just a part of this process as we are in the UK.

 

[Woosh]

I don't see how I can be loyal to a UK government that I fundamentally think is wrong, I'm not loyal just because of a fluke of birth geography. My loyalty has to be earned, and I'm afraid TM doesn't have it.

You need to see beyond this term of parliament. In the hypothetical situation where we crash out without a deal, I assume that a second referendum or fresh general election will be fought on brexit and its principles because all the facts will then be known. If voters change side, it won't be because of loyalty to the outgoing administration.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

You need to see beyond this term of parliament. In the hypothetical situation where we crash out without a deal, I assume that a second referendum or fresh general election will be fought on brexit and its principles because all the facts will then be known. If voters change side, it won't be because of loyalty to the outgoing administration.

I also see the EU as a lot more than a trade agreement deal, its about lasting and meaningful peace between nations, its about common environmental, legal and other standards that make it fair positive etc etc. Its also about me easily being able to retire to Italy, my nieces and nephews being able to take part in the Erasmus scheme, my friends from the EU being able to come and live here....its about a host of benefits.

 

[oldgroaner]

You need to see beyond this term of parliament. In the hypothetical situation where we crash out without a deal, I assume that a second referendum or fresh general election will be fought on brexit and its principles because all the facts will then be known. If voters change side, it won't be because of loyalty to the outgoing administration.

And since there is no effective opposition once again the Conservatives will be elected.
This will not prove that Brexit was understood and approved by the population at large, as most didn't bother to vote in the referendum, as they were not interested, so why should they be now when it's all too much of a bother?
They will will still fall for the same persuasive voices they have in the past