Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

. The clue was in the words " try another lie" for the reference to liar.. It is for that you should apologize. He had repeated the fact that of those eligible to vote a majority had voted.
More importantly and in the context that your country has a representative democracy, he could have claimed that an overwhelming majority had voted leave, as that was the result from the Commons

Still trying to put spin on my words?
"try another lie" does not call him a liar either, it merely infers there are many more to choose from which can be posted as an "Alternative Truth"
Had I wanted to call him personally a liar, I would not hesitate to do so.
You really must sharpen those cognitive skills.
As to the "Overwhelming majority " in the house of commons, this was merely a submission on their part in the hope of averting mass unrest, and obtained under duress, particularly in the case of the lords, and the Article 50 bill was written as a "catch 22" to get accepted
It will prove in time to have been an error of the gravest sort to agree to it.

 

[oldgroaner]

I did know that the referendum is advisory, Kudosdave made that point much earlier in this debate and the Supreme Court was right to confirm parliament is sovereign in this matter, not the government.
When I said 'democracy is served' meaning it's parliament that enacted the A50 bill, not the tory government ramrodded the A50 through.

Pull the other leg, it's got Bells on!
This has been a "Sucker Punch" all the way

 

[gray198]

But I didn't say they were happy with the status quo, only that they had no interest in changing it.

Rather like me receiving an offer to change my electricity supplier and not bothering to accept because I'm not interested in any possible gain. That is sufficient to indicate I'm content to stay as I am, but is in no way an indication that I think a change would be good.

That means the 31 millions who didn't vote are biased strongly to it being not worth bothering to change but show no bias to leaving.
.

They should have voted then. Maybe it wouldn't be changing.

 

[flecc]

They should have voted then. Maybe it wouldn't be changing.

Of course. The payback for them and all of us will be when all the problems of Brexit increasingly emerge. Then, even if not one Brexiter changes their mind, two thirds of the country will become very angry.
.

 

[gray198]

Of course. The payback for them and all of us will be when all the problems of Brexit increasingly emerge. Then, even if not one Brexiter changes their mind, two thirds of the country will become very angry.
.

There seems to be an attitude in this country that it's everybody's elses responsibility to do something. I put this down to the nanny state telling us what to eat/drink/think how to speak what to like/not like etc. This seems to have removed the need for people to think for themselves

 

[oldgroaner]

The referendum asked two questions, do we want to remain within the EU or do we want to leave the EU. Roughly 70% of the population did not vote to remain in the EU, and as you point out, about 68% didn't vote to leave. So where does analysing what was not voted for take us? Nowhere.

Refers to actual result of votes cast.

It points out that there was no massive mandate for change just a marginal difference between two concerned factions, well below the norm required as a differential for major change, as is the EU requirement parameters for their acceptance of the terms of divorce, where virtually a 2 to 1 ratio is required.

Sorry tillson the support for Brexit was woefully inadequte, especially when you take into consideration it was not even legally binding.
The Country has been railroaded by con men and women into something it should not have been exposed to.

 

[oldgroaner]

There seems to be an attitude in this country that it's everybody's elses responsibility to do something. I put this down to the nanny state telling us what to eat/drink/think how to speak what to like/not like etc. This seems to have removed the need for people to think for themselves

Perhaps you are right and that is why so many voted for Brexit when they hadn't even the beginning of a clue as to what was involved?
And for that matter are no wiser to this day?
And you can include the Brexit politicians in that total.
Madness, and apparently infectious.

 

[oldtom]

They should have voted then. Maybe it wouldn't be changing.

You're absolutely right and the result shocked a lot of people, Nigel Farage and myself included. We will never know if the result would actually have been different had compulsory voting been a requirement but I firmly believe we should not be undertaking this secession from the EU on such a close outcome in a poll where the public was not obliged to turn out and vote.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

Of course. The payback for them and all of us will be when all the problems of Brexit increasingly emerge. Then, even if not one Brexiter changes their mind, two thirds of the country will become very angry.
.

if that happens, then two thirds of the UK will want brexit to be reversed.
I don't see that is going to be a problem. Until then, let's continue as we are.

 

[oldtom]

This made me smile:



Tom

 

[cosybike]

My Girlfriend got told to get back to her own country at macdonalds the other day. I'd chastised a young lady for tipping her rubbish out the car. You know, British values and all that. Brexit blx absolutely makes these people feel they are justified in spouting crap like this.

Sent from my Lenovo YT3-850F using Tapatalk

 

[Danidl]

Still trying to put spin on my words?
"try another lie" does not call him a liar either, it merely infers there are many more to choose from which can be posted as an "Alternative Truth"
Had I wanted to call him personally a liar, I would not hesitate to do so.
You really must sharpen those cognitive skills.
As to the "Overwhelming majority " in the house of commons, this was merely a submission on their part in the hope of averting mass unrest, and obtained under duress, particularly in the case of the lords, and the Article 50 bill was written as a "catch 22" to get accepted
It will prove in time to have been an error of the gravest sort to agree to it.

.... Talk about spin . What other logical interpretation can be put on that sentence other than you ,are stating that he has previously lied and inviting him to compound the error by uttering another lie. ?

It is for this phrase I did suggest and continue to recommend that you apologise. Now Woosh is probably a big boy and may have ignored this , but it is still outstanding.

Whether he did in fact lie is a moot point. My operational definition of a lie is an untruth uttered with the intention to deceive, and to my surprise, I find it shared by a number of dictionaries. So even had he stated an untruth, in which he believed, it would not be a lie. But in point of fact his assertion of "more than half " , is a worst an unverified and unverifiable statement, regrettably even possibly true.
If you want to pick on a lie, the statement on the red bus about the NHS, would more likely fit the bill.
There is no value in recycling the referendum, it is history. The decision of your parliament superseded that. There is likewise little point in discussing the secession act also as the article 50 letter has superceded that. There may be a point in going back over the voting in the parliament when next your country has elections, but for now it is pointless. There is every point in discussing the great repeal bill and it's white paper.
The only show in town is the negotiations and how to minimise damage.

 

[Danidl]

if that happens, then two thirds of the UK will want brexit to be reversed.
I don't see that is going to be a problem. Until then, let's continue as we are.

... It is a problem now. The UK is no longer in any driving seat.

 

[oldtom]

The only show in town is the negotiations and how to minimise damage.

I certainly agree that you have that part right 'Danidl'.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

My Girlfriend got told to get back to her own country at macdonalds the other day. I'd chastised a young lady for tipping her rubbish out the car. You know, British values and all that. Brexit blx absolutely makes these people feel they are justified in spouting crap like this.

Sent from my Lenovo YT3-850F using Tapatalk

After the vicious murder of Jo Cox MP, the Polish man in Harlow and the mob attack on some young foreign kids in Croydon most recently, it is important to recognise these actions for what they are and all decent people should be quick to condemn the morons responsible.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

The 'Brexit' camp has been slow to grasp, (or are happy to stay quiet and ignore the fact), that their dream of an independent Shangri-La has been hijacked by all the racist groups and fascist nutters who have been given confidence and inspiration by the fascist, extreme right of the tory party and UKIP.

The fact that we have seen in addition most recently, tory MPs discussing the possibility under which we might go to war with Spain, since denied of course by other tory MPs, should be ringing alarm bells in anyone with a spark of decency and human compassion......as well as a basic knowledge of history.

Anyone who thinks that 'Brexit' ever had anything to do with trade or with the economy or economics has completely failed to grasp what it is really about. Keep watching and acquiescing and eventually you will come to understand but it will be painful.....and too late!

That was Edmund Burke I plagiarised for that quote by the way. I imagine he would be delighted that his country today is now largely free of English rule and domination and a full member of the EU.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

... It is a problem now. The UK is no longer in any driving seat.

apparently, there is a bit of that but I still think that many brexiters have voted on a point of principles, democracy and self determination. The EU feels threatened enough by this point of principles to make no secret that it will do everything in its power to stop others to follow the UK's example.
Where will the loyalty of remainers lie when the negotiation fails and it becomes clear that the EU does not want brexit to succeed?

 

[Danidl]

After the vicious murder of Jo Cox MP, the Polish man in Harlow and the mob attack on some young foreign kids in Croydon most recently, it is important to recognise these actions for what they are and all decent people should be quick to condemn the morons responsible.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

The 'Brexit' camp has been slow to grasp, (or are happy to stay quiet and ignore the fact), that their dream of an independent Shangri-La has been hijacked by all the racist groups and fascist nutters who have been given confidence and inspiration by the fascist, extreme right of the tory party and UKIP.

The fact that we have seen in addition most recently, tory MPs discussing the possibility under which we might go to war with Spain, since denied of course by other tory MPs, should be ringing alarm bells in anyone with a spark of decency and human compassion......as well as a basic knowledge of history.

Anyone who thinks that 'Brexit' ever had anything to do with trade or with the economy or economics has completely failed to grasp what it is really about. Keep watching and acquiescing and eventually you will come to understand but it will be painful.....and too late!

That was Edmund Burke I plagiarised for that quote by the way. I imagine he would be delighted that his country today is now largely free of English rule and domination and a full member of the EU.

Tom

There will be no War over Gibraltar. There will be huffing and puffing . It is not a red line issue. Incidentally Edmund Burke would probably have been both a Eurosceptic but proeuropean parliment and anti brexit. He was not in favour of the then small local Irish parliament, and felt that you had to go to the center in order to effect change. .. hence going to the Westminster parliment. So nowadays he would have wanted to be in Brussels.

 

[Danidl]

apparently, there is a bit of that but I still think that many brexiters have voted on a point of principles, democracy and self determination. The EU feels threatened enough by this point of principles to make no secret that it will do everything in its power to stop others to follow the UK's example.
Where will the loyalty of remainers lie when the negotiation fails and it becomes clear that the EU does not want brexit to succeed?

... Why would the EU want brexit suceed?. As the .UK parliament said only a few years ago" we are better together.". Almost everybody in Europe recognises this and believe that in this matter the UK are daft.
What do you do with the daft cousin who is an adult?. You try and reason with them , you recognise their right to go their own way but what you not do is enable their behaviour.
Now I get the argument you previously advanced about "taking back control" , and that this has been elevated to a point of principle. I don't agree, but I understand the argument.

 

[Danidl]

I disagree 'Danidl'. 'Woosh' is guilty of one of the major problems we suffer in this oligarchy which presents itself as a democracy. He does what many other anti-EU types have been doing since the beginning of this fiasco in that he regurgitates the lies and headline propaganda from the government's media wing, aka the British press and audio/visual media.

Everyone should be aware by now that the nation was fed a diet of lies from the proponents of 'Brexit' with regard to the referendum. Those lies were continued post - referendum, all through the government's vacillating about what 'Brexit' might mean and even now, following activation of the signal A50 provisions, the picture projected about the post-'Brexit' economy and general state of the nation looks gloomy at best and disastrous at worst.

For anyone to continue with such drivel now about the kind of numbers that supported secession last June, is simply to excuse their ignorance of what has actually happened since and what is likely to happen over the next couple of years. The statistics reveal the truth about the voting details last June, besides which we know that had the result been reversed, the 'Brexit' proponents would have pursued their campaign further. Farage, indeed, made reference to the margin after the event.

The point about lies is that it seems to be endemic among the 'Brexit' fans and they use it to fortify their morale in the absence of any plan for a post-'Brexit' future. Of course, all of this becomes academic if we find ourselves on a war footing with one or all of our current EU partners a little further down the road. The British have never been great fans of international diplomacy without the threat of a gunboat!

Tom

... What do you disagree with was
1. That the words " care to try another lie" imply that he has lied and is invited to repeat the process.
2. That he is unworthy of an apology
3. His right to express an opinion , which both of us disagree with.
Please be explicit.

 

[oldgroaner]

.... Talk about spin . What other logical interpretation can be put on that sentence other than you ,are stating that he has previously lied and inviting him to compound the error by uttering another lie. ?

It is for this phrase I did suggest and continue to recommend that you apologise. Now Woosh is probably a big boy and may have ignored this , but it is still outstanding.

Whether he did in fact lie is a moot point. My operational definition of a lie is an untruth uttered with the intention to deceive, and to my surprise, I find it shared by a number of dictionaries. So even had he stated an untruth, in which he believed, it would not be a lie. But in point of fact his assertion of "more than half " , is a worst an unverified and unverifiable statement, regrettably even possibly true.
If you want to pick on a lie, the statement on the red bus about the NHS, would more likely fit the bill.
There is no value in recycling the referendum, it is history. The decision of your parliament superseded that. There is likewise little point in discussing the secession act also as the article 50 letter has superceded that. There may be a point in going back over the voting in the parliament when next your country has elections, but for now it is pointless. There is every point in discussing the great repeal bill and it's white paper.
The only show in town is the negotiations and how to minimise damage.

You said it in your own words
"So even had he stated an untruth, in which he believed, it would not be a lie."
Really? that is stuff and nonsense! a lie remains a lie, or the notion of Truth does not exist.
You have confirmed my statement that he uttered a lie without the intent to lie.
You are assuming intent on his part to lie that I did not. Millions of people have repeated these same lies while assuming them to be true, and when pressed would simply trot out another when continuing debate without even being aware they are doing it.
They remain lies by any other name and the people uttering them are not liars, just misinformed.
Your indignation is misplaced.
I will not apologise for telling the truth.
As to your last paragraph, whatever is agreed as exit terms will only have a temporary effect , and merely impede or hasten deep trouble.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk