Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

The original point concerned the sale of weapons. OG was singling out the UK. It doesn't make it any more acceptable, but I was making the case that this is not exclusively a UK issue.

As for Trident. It was a TEST. The clue is in the word TEST. Tests are conducted to try something, a new system, modification, procedure or component. In other words develop. Sometimes tests don't work and that's ok, that's why we test, to learn, so that then influences development.

Of course for some, OG for example, a test is a golden opportunity to ridicule and criticise his nation.

No tillson "My nation" isn't being criticised, the morons that run it are, even you can understand that, and you do, but it never stopped you making facetious comments about my loyalty when defending this Brexit mistake,
For amusement purpose I shall employ your argument in response;

I repeat the traitors to the nation are not those who sought to retain stability and membership of the EU but the compulsive gamblers who fell for a pack of lies, which even when they proved false, they are too arrogant to admit they were wrong, and this is an idea that will actually harm the people of this country.
Why are you anxious to gamble the future of the nation?
Do you hate it enough to do that?, and for what?

This is simply turning your own so called logic back on you, and it makes no sense that way either.
Do drop this unproductive line of attack.

We are all still waiting for evidence to support the idea that Brexit will be beneficial.You would do better to concentrate on that and give up these diversionary tactics.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Now I'm puzzled.....just how many wrongs does it take to make a right?

The right is always wrong...

 

[oldgroaner]

The right is always wrong...

In politics you are absolutely correct!

 

[Woosh]

Two things caught my eye this Sunday morning:

Don with the wind:

And this letter from a Guardian reader:

Our European colleagues face many challenges.

• How to maintain the free movement of people in a world where terrorism has the potential to strike in any place.

• How to sustain a community where fewer than half the members are net contributors.

• How to manage the economic growth of countries with a shared currency through a central bank when they are at different stages of their individual economic growth cycle.

• How to develop international trade agreements quickly, outside a largely stagnating collective EU economy.

for if and when we rejoin the EU, those problems would have been solved and we would have to replace the Pound with the Euro.

 

[tillson]

Now I'm puzzled.....just how many wrongs does it take to make a right?

Tom

That's easily answered. A wrong is a wrong and a right is a right. X Wrongs does not equal right.

 

[Zlatan]

Just a quick comment about Argentine conflict ( yes its off topic)
Yes the French did stop supplying exocet after 2nd April 1982 but at this point Argentinians were having technical problems launching. A team of French engineers sorted problem out mid April.

Supplying arms to anyone has moral repercussions. Seems all nations are guilty

But then again the first Me 109,s were fitted with Rolls Royce engines....Uk supplied both sides in American civil war with rifles.And Hiram Maxim (an American) sold his design of machine guns to both Germany and Britain . The guns that killed thousands upon thousands in WW1 were essentially same.
The world is a mad mad place.

 

[oldgroaner]

That's easily answered. A wrong is a wrong and a right is a right. X Wrongs does not equal right.

Yet you support arms sales to despots?

 

[oldgroaner]

Two things caught my eye this Sunday morning:

Don with the wind:

And this letter from a Guardian reader:



for if and when we rejoin the EU, those problems would have been solved and we would have to replace the Pound with the Euro.

A bit academic anyway when our national debt is somewhere approaching £1.7 trillion we have no certain future and are now saddling ourselves to an America which itself is intent on making an even bigger fool of itself than the Torys seem intent on making this one.

 

[tillson]

Yet you support arms sales to despots?

I don't think I said that I support arms sales to despots. I'm not sure where that has come from. It's probably wishful thinking on your part.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Just a quick comment about Argentine conflict ( yes its off topic)
Yes the French did stop supplying exocet after 2nd April 1982 but at this point Argentinians were having technical problems launching. A team of French engineers sorted problem out mid April.

Those were the missiles that they had taken from a ship with a different launch system and which had to be reprogrammed to work. There was much controversy in France as to whether the after sales support contract should be honored or not. Eventually it was accepted that engineers from a private company (yes, you need lots of imagination to accept that it is really private) had the right to respect a service contract.

Supplying arms to anyone has moral repercussions. Seems all nations are guilty

There are lines which should not be crossed - supplying Saudi Arabia so that it can bomb hospitals might be one of those lines?

 

[oldgroaner]

Just a quick comment about Argentine conflict ( yes its off topic)
Yes the French did stop supplying exocet after 2nd April 1982 but at this point Argentinians were having technical problems launching. A team of French engineers sorted problem out mid April.

Supplying arms to anyone has moral repercussions. Seems all nations are guilty

But then again the first Me 109,s were fitted with Rolls Royce engines....Uk supplied both sides in American civil war with rifles.And Hiram Maxim (an American) sold his design of machine guns to both Germany and Britain . The guns that killed thousands upon thousands in WW1 were essentially same.
The world is a mad mad place.

actually it was only the prototype Me 109 that was fitted with a Rolls Royce Kestrel engine, and the ones used by Franco's Air force after the war were fitted with RR Merlin Engines.
And in the case of the American Multi National I worked for, war was a great profit maker, as in BOTH world wars it made armaments for both sides!
The world is indeed a mad mad place.

 

[Zlatan]

Those were the missiles that they had taken from a ship with a different launch system and which had to be reprogrammed to work. There was much controversy in France as to whether the after sales support contract should be honored or not. Eventually it was accepted that engineers from a private company (yes, you need lots of imagination to accept that it is really private) had the right to respect a service contract.



There are lines which should not be crossed - supplying Saudi Arabia so that it can bomb hospitals might be one of those lines?

Yes fair point . There would be a massive dilemma around after sales. Private or not is rather a mute point. It was argued that the private engineers were part of a French military unit. In effect it makes little difference. Its the problem supplying arms to anyone and I,d hazard a guess UK is as guilty as anyone.
The military were very unimpressed at time and the truth was kept away from public domain for years. ( It certainly was not reported at time)

Agreed your last point but who decides which regimes are legitimate customers..A referendum perhaps.

 

[anotherkiwi]

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/27/military_equipment_budget_unaffordable_warns_nao/

And healthcare?

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't think I said that I support arms sales to despots. I'm not sure where that has come from. It's probably wishful thinking on your part.

That's true,you didn't express support, but didn't condemn it either and this gives the impression you are in favour of these arms sales
"You appear to intensely dislike the UK and will pounce on any opportunity to undermine its standing."
As an exporter of weapons of destruction?
Don't you read your own posts?
How do you imagine that reads?

 

[Zlatan]

actually it was only the prototype Me 109 that was fitted with a Rolls Royce Kestrel engine, and the ones used by Franco's Air force after the war were fitted with RR Merlin Engines.
And in the case of the American Multi National I worked for, war was a great profit maker, as in BOTH world wars it made armaments for both sides!
The world is indeed a mad mad place.

Yes you are correct, but the Kestrel was extensively copied by DB to make series of engines powering all ME 109s. I had a friend who worked on Merlin during war. He assured me you could remove DB 605 ( might have got numbers wrong , could be 650) and drop in a Merlin. A captured 109 was infact fiitted with a merlin. (DB perfected injection,RR stuck with carbs..and of course Miss Shillings orifice. Google it if you don't know what it is..) It was very clever.

 

[oldtom]

Now I think that would be a wrong but Tillson is the expert in this field, it seems.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

I understand some Americans have baulked at the cost of a wall and the Mexicans don't seem to fancy the idea much anyway. This is the alternative they have come up with:



Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

Oh the joys of Brexit
"
Theresa May secures multi billion pound fighter jet deal with Turkey before challenging President Erdogan on human rights
Brexit; financed by selling killing machines to Despots, with a warning to be nice when you use them.
"The Goodness will Flow!"
And of course the odd few gallons of Blood, but hey! there's a profit to be made, so what's a little blood from people Trump doesn't want anyway?

She sold off the design and technology allowing Turkey to build its own jet fighters,effectively a licence deal,not what it is portrayed by May. £100 million would only buy a couple of jets.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Hiram Maxim (an American) sold his design of machine guns to both Germany and Britain . The guns that killed thousands upon thousands in WW1 were essentially same.
The world is a mad mad place.

Though born in the USA, Hiram was a naturalised Briton and invented the Maxim machine gun in Britain, in Soho, London in fact. The versions used in WW1 were Vickers guns, who took over Maxim in 1896. Hiram had no part in that production or supply of guns for World War 1.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Though born in the USA, Hiram was a naturalised Briton and invented the Maxim machine gun in Britain, in Soho, London in fact. The versions used in WW1 were Vickers guns, who took over Maxim in 1896. Hiram had no part in that production or supply of guns for World War 1.
.

His design was used in Vickers and Spandau. He came to Britain because USA didn't take up his designs.Had they done so both our and Germany,s machine gun capability would have been years behind. Maxim is regarded as father of machine guns.
And the army,s first machine guns were built by Maxim. Vickers altered designs to help production...The concept was identical.Without Maxim there would have been no Vickers machine gun( as it became to be known) Vickers turned firing mechanism over ,reduced weight,used cheaper materials where possible,and redesigned to help both production and to facilitate rapid barrel changes. Lewis and Browning had to appear before there were real changes in machine gun design.( ie blow back as opposed to recoil)