Brexit, for once some facts.

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Why do you imagine that I have made a disgusting remark to Australia?
I have already made it clear enough but I shall bring it to your attention once more as you seem incapable of understanding how deplorable your comments really are.

Here is the question you were posed by 'KTM':
What about if we sign a trade deal with Australia, would you support freedom of movement with them?

Here is your reply:
No. Freedom of movement is a long term target when the world will eventually become one.
If you cannot see how hurtful, divisive and inherently racist that is towards people, large numbers of whom still recognise QE2 as the head of state despite Australia gaining full independence in 1986, and thousands of whom volunteered in two world wars and paid the ultimate sacrifice, then you really should be ashamed at your ignorance. What you stated is a betrayal, not just of Australians, but of all commonwealth peoples and our neighbours across the Irish sea because, by logical extension, your argument would affect all of those too.

Tom
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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You see this is a classic example of the desperation of the remain lobby. They find it necessary to fabricate situations which do not exist.

Leave has never ever been about stopping immigration. It's been about controlling immigration. Targeting the skills and talents which the UK needs.

The fact that we are trying to attract immigrant maths teachers dovetails perfectly with BREXIT.

We don't require goat herders, so under BREXIT, a time served apprentice goat herder would be looked upon less favourably than a maths graduate. Can you see how it works?

So stop the feeble attempt at portraying BREXIT as a kick'em all out campaign. It's not and you know it isn't. If that's what you have descended to doing in order to further the remain campaign, then you have lost.
Lets look at that in Detail
At the moment we have a free for all of people coming in and presumably either finding work or living on benefits.
Straight away we can kill of the living on benefits notion as they need to survive the first three months before any are available to them.
Then you have to ask how come the NHS is only in existence because of the huge number of immigrants working in it.
Why aren't locals employed instead?
Are they incapable of doing the jobs, or is it cheaper to import ready trained people and leave out people on the dole?
At the other end of the scale we have as an example fruit pickers
Would this keep someone here in house and home all year?
of course not.
So now we do something that the government has no intention of doing by limiting the numbers coming in.
And picking and choosing .
We will still get the Fruit pickers and the Farmers won't pay more for our people
We will still get the Skilled Nurses, doctors, scientists and technicians.
So the average man or woman on the street is still out of work but expected to be happy because Immigration is "Under Control" (even though more than before may be coming in to keep profits up)

When and if this happens these will result
  1. A huge administration cost to control the situation that in the past we have either been unable or unwilling to do
  2. The only jobs available for our workers will be for unskilled people as the cost of training them makes it a better bet to bring them in fully trained from abroad just as now.
  3. pretty soon the man on the street will begin to realise that Brexit has simply made the jobs situation worse and cost of living harder to support.
The whole notion of controlling immigration isn't sufficient to benefit the man or woman on the street
It won't make a tinkers cuss of difference will it?
In that respect the only thing that will is stopping immigration altogether
None of us want that, but to the bloke at the bottom that is the only thing that he or she can see that will solve their problems, and sooner or later that is what they will start to demand.
In fact to many anything less is a sellout of the Brexit they voted for, as they don't want as they preceive it Johnny Foreigner taking not only the lower level jobs, but the plum ones too.
Be warned... there is big trouble as much that will not be delivered has been promised
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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I can't disagree with nearly all of what you have written. I see the problem being that with a big pool of people willing to be exploited and work for minimum wage, minimum wage and exploitation will continue. The private companies who employ these people will see their pockets fill with money off the back of this.

It's supply and demand.
Actually it's not it's the result of oppressive government policies forcing people into inferior agreements than they should be entitled to work wise, what on earth are you thinking of to condone that?
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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oldtom,
If you cannot see how hurtful, divisive and inherently racist that is towards people, large numbers of whom still recognise QE2 as the head of state despite Australia gaining full independence in 1986, and thousands of whom volunteered in two world wars and paid the ultimate sacrifice, then you really should be ashamed at your ignorance. What you stated is a betrayal, not just of Australians, but of all commonwealth peoples and our neighbours across the Irish sea because, by logical extension, your argument would affect all of those too.

Tom
what if you wanted to move to Australia? Would they just let you in?
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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Currently UK is EU... so all your points are just as valid to UK national workers as EU ones. Leaving the EU won't solve any of the problems you have described. All you're doing is adding a layer of red tape, which will put costs up for UK consumers, we're still going to need the EU workers, they are here because they are vacancies.
yes, I agree they are here to work but as non-tariff barriers, we will be able to introduce stronger employment legislation to protect workers.
The EU do not have at the moment sufficient mechanism to stop exploitative employment. Freedom of movement and service move workers from countries having the least stringent regulations and lowest taxes to where there are vacancies.
For example, at the moment, nothing stops an EU company supplying lorry driver to my freight forwarders. The drivers are paid in Romania, their employers pay taxes in Romania and yet, their family lives here.

Brexit will solve that problem.
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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oldtom,


what if you wanted to move to Australia? Would they just let you in?
Not if they read this forum.
But no they wouldn't..have friends who could not accumalate enough points to emigrate to Aus...so they spent 5 years in NZ...went to Auz for a few years...then back to NZ...
Over years it has got more difficult to emigrate to either...Doctors, teachers, generally score enough points for NZ where they can accumulate enough points to get into Aus. ( But not checked for a few years)
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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In exactly the same way as the UK doesn't 'just let' people in, there would be a process involved but you really are being silly now.

Tom
Who thinks immigration control is insulting to people subjected to it?
I don't.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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No I can't see how it works,we need a mix of skills to do all the tasks in our country,which Brits are either not qualified or too lazy to do.
have you interviewed the quality of employee available from the job exchange,many of these I wouldn't employ if I was paid to take them,they would be disruptive to my good guys.
Well there is the problem. The circumstances need to change whereby the able bodied Brits find that the alternative to work is highly unattractive. I think BREXIT will deliver on this, :)
 
yes, I agree they are here to work but as non-tariff barriers, we will be able to introduce stronger employment legislation to protect workers.
The EU do not have at the moment sufficient mechanism to stop exploitative employment. Freedom of movement and service move workers from countries having the least stringent regulations and lowest taxes to where there are vacancies.
For example, at the moment, nothing stops an EU company supplying lorry driver to my freight forwarders. The drivers are paid in Romania, their employers pay taxes in Romania and yet, their family lives here.

Brexit will solve that problem.
What planet are you currently on, that has given you the impression that a post Brexit UK will have more regulation and protection for workers? Everything coming from the government currently is about less regulation to make us more competitive.

That "problem" you've described won't change post Brexit. How will being outside the EU stop freight companies paid in Romania working in the UK? They'll just get a permit and carry on working. The only thing that will happen is UK costs will go up to cover the time all the goods spend at customs, and the hassle of getting workforce permits to do the jobs they were doing before and will carry on doing.
 
Well there is the problem. The circumstances need to change whereby the able bodied Brits find that the alternative to work is highly unattractive. I think BREXIT will deliver on this, :)
how on earth will leaving the EU make any difference to this problem??

and I agree its a problem.... but its caused by the UK, and solved by the UK. Nothing the EU does or doesn't do can solve this can it?
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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Once again 'Woosh', you have demonstrated your inability to construct a sound argument either for 'Brexit' or against it. Instead, you attack me for having 'blind faith' in the leader of HM Opposition Party.

It's interesting that you clearly read my post #10050, prompted by your remarks in post #10009, yet chose to ignore my point, going on to state instead in post #10052:



I had previously stated very clearly my opinion of Jeremy Corbyn in post #9673:



so once again, you have posted nonsense.

With regard to your disgusting remark about Australians, this is their flag:

View attachment 17453

As you feel that those fine people are undeserving of free movement between their country and the UK, perhaps you'd like to attend the ANZAC day service this year on the 25th April at Westminster Abbey and tell those in attendance why it is your belief they should no longer be made welcome in the UK. I believe tickets go on sale about this time but you can check here:

http://uk.embassy.gov.au/lhlh/EventsAnzacD.html

Now, 'blind faith' seems to me like the only raison d'être those advocating 'Brexit' have left in their locker.

Tom
What disgusting remark regarding Aussies? Are you having another "episode" again?
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
oldtom,
how can you link brexit in its present state with Nazi Germany is beyond my comprehension.
It seems to be that you only read what you want to read. I explained in paragraph 2 of post #10050 exactly why I draw comparison between today's fascists and those of the 1930s and 40s. I put it like this:

At this present time, we are witnessing a re-birth of the same kind of political dimension which brought about the murder of millions of human beings on an industrial scale back in the 1940s. It is probably futile to expect the people who rally behind the modern-day fascists to believe that history could repeat itself but one must speak out rather than stay silent.
Perhaps you find that notion ridiculous but history does have a habit of repeating itself.

Tom
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,381
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so because some fascists jumped on the brexit wagon - you put all those who voted for it in the fascist box?
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
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I refer you to post #10102 for my convenience rather than have you trace back through several pages........although I'm sure you know perfectly well which disgusting remark I refer to.

Tom
Thank you for the link, it did save me hunting back through previous posts.

Although I can see your point regarding our history and our relationship with Australia, I do think that you are over reacting to what was said.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Who thinks immigration control is insulting to people subjected to it?
I don't.
Has someone suggested that immigration control is insulting? I certainly didn't. We have always had immigration control in place, perhaps not as effective and stringent as some would wish but I can't recall anyone describing it as insulting - have I missed such a remark in these pages?

Tom
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Thank you for the link, it did save me hunting back through previous posts.

Although I can see your point regarding our history and our relationship with Australia, I do think that you are over reacting to what was said.
I disagree that I over-reacted, indeed I consider my response was measured considering that I don't suffer fools gladly.

Tom
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Trump is frightening.....he has immediately banned Muslims from 7 countries. The result is that passengers on US bound flights are being pulled off planes in Dubai,these are husbands/wives of US citizens,guys going to award ceremonies. Google has immediately pulled back 100 employees to the US,hoping that customs have not yet got their act together.
Whatever the rights/wrongs of Trumps executive order it would have been sensible to have a cooling off period to give people fair warning of his actions.
Trump is dangerous.
KudosDave
 

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