Brexit, for once some facts.

That's why I predict that brexit (even soft brexit) will lead to Scottish and N. Irish independence.

I think we can have a totally rational, politically correct discussion about brexit. Not many posters bother about political correctness but I sincerely do.
So then surely, the next step is for Cornwall, Yorkshire etc etc to become separate from London... or indeed London to become separate from everywhere?

I don't like being ruled by the centre of Huddersfield, it has no relevance to my life here on the outskirts... etc etc. I

ts nonsense and just because its popular, doesn't mean we should be letting it happen!!!
 

oldgroaner

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You wanted to know why brexit, I gave you the reason.
Let's go back to the 50s, why did so many ex-colonies want their independence?
They don't want English judges.
Not so, they didn't want English Taxation and Control, not just the judges.
 

flecc

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It's not a question of how much control we have surrendered. It is the idea that we surrender any at all.
How does the idea of judges of a different nationality sit in the ECJ deciding on issues concerning the UK appear to you? It is unacceptable to half of the UK.
What nationality a judge is is of no importance, the number of judges can be. The two European courts have done nothing other than good for UK citizens, in many cases making up for the shortfalls of our own law and its implementation.

Our own legal system had become seriously flawed by a number of pieces of modern legislation, making for too many to be victims of it. Even the Home Office, which has a vested interest in pretending the legal system is working well, estimates that there are some 3000 wrongly convicted prisoners, that's 4% of the total. The creation of the Supreme Court is the only thing that's helped to alleviate the problems, as it has just shown in it's last ruling. But the Supreme Court alone is not sufficient to protect us from the defects, excesses and bigotry of government, and that's where the European courts are invaluable as they've so often showed.

Remember David Cameron suddenly deciding he wanted to scrap the Human Rights Act? The judgement of one man, a man whose judgment was so flawed that he stupidly called for the referendum, creating this current mess. He didn't even give his true reason for wanting to scrap the act, instead lying to us all.

And Michael Howard when he was Home Secretary arbitrarily increasing a court trial sentence of 8 years to 15 years, almost doubled merely because he thought that right. Fortunately the international and national fuss forced that to be stopped, but he almost got away with it.

And the recent Home Secretary who said "I don't care how many are wrongly convicted, just so long as there is not one abuser left on the streets".

Those are the sort of things we all need protection from still.
.
 
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Woosh

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So then surely, the next step is for Cornwall, Yorkshire etc etc to become separate from London... or indeed London to become separate from everywhere?

I don't like being ruled by the centre of Huddersfield, it has no relevance to my life here on the outskirts... etc etc. I

ts nonsense and just because its popular, doesn't mean we should be letting it happen!!!
I don't think the issue of nationality is non-sense at all. Half of the UK want victory at all costs, to quote Churchill: "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."
If you keep talking about the economy, you are not going to change their mind. If less than 1 out of 10 brexit voters change their mind, you are not going to reverse brexit.
 
I don't think the issue of nationality is non-sense at all. Half of the UK want victory at all costs, to quote Churchill: "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."
If you keep talking about the economy, you are not going to change their mind. If less than 1 out of 10 brexit voters change their mind, you are not going to reverse brexit.
It is nonsense, and your post proves it... UK isn't even a nation!

Plus we don't need to change the mind of people who voted Brexit, it was just an opinion poll. We just need to get some of the ones who didn't vote to realise what their apathy is giving up, and get MPs to realise that they were right with their campaign in 2016, leaving is not in the best interests of this country.
 

Danidl

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Seems a policy of remainers to have an " us and them" ; " north and south" ; " informed and uninformed" mentality.
I don't think it helps , its actually divisive ; insulting and damaging to us ever getting mutually beneficial result .
I .Would agree with you on this point that putting people into two camps and then insulting the other camp is divisive. Using terms like brexidoit or remoaner should be banned from any civilised debate.Even my spelling checker agrees with me and I have to fight it to put in these nonsense words.[/QUOTE]
 
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Woosh

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What nationality a judge is is of no importance, the number of judges can be. The two European courts have done nothing other than good for UK citizens, in many cases making up for the shortfalls of our own law and its implementation.
.
I am afraid that nationality matters to half of the UK.
The benefit to the UK is secondary.
If you stand in the street and ask people: do you know what the ECJ does? I bet no one will say 'stop the UK government pay welfare benefits to EU citizens who are economically inactive'. If you ask 'how many UK judges sit in the ECJ?' Most will think none (2 out of 47 is the correct answer).
 
I am afraid that nationality matters to half of the UK.
The benefit to the UK is secondary.
If you stand in the street and ask people: do you know what the ECJ does? I bet no one will say 'stop the UK government pay welfare benefits to EU citizens who are economically inactive'. If you ask 'how many UK judges sit in the ECJ?' Most will think none (2 out of 47 is the correct answer).
and that's exactly why MPs will be considering that asking the people to vote on this has done nothing but prove that they shouldn't have asked the public to vote on something that they clearly don't understand.
 
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Danidl

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Something to digest.

From Peter French

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT NEWS POST I HAVE EVER HAD TO POST. PLEASE READ AND SHARE !!

Brexit is not in my name.
Peter French

Unite For Europe
Saturday 25th March London
11am start.
Park Lane, London




With respect this is a worthless post and a futile gesture.
1 Once a parliment decision to invoke the article 50 process has been communicated to the EU , the process will be irreversible and irrevocable. Any marches after that date are just an excercise in futility. See my previous post on article 50.
2. That unnamed or unspecified threats would be posted is paranoia. The houses of parliament collectively have the power. The members of these houses have a sworn duty to ethical behaviour standards . One of these duties is to stand firm against bullying. If they are unable to do so then they individually are unfit to govern. If they believe in brexit, then fine let them vote that way, if they do not , in their considered opinion believe it not in the best interests of the UK then they should vote accordingly, and in both cases be prepared to explain their actions to their own electorate.
 
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Woosh

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and that's exactly why MPs will be considering that asking the people to vote on this has done nothing but prove that they shouldn't have asked the public to vote on something that they clearly don't understand.
A lot of MPs don't have much of a spine.
They changed their mind after the referendum.
 

Danidl

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It's not a question of how much control we have surrendered. It is the idea that we surrender any at all.
How does the idea of judges of a different nationality sit in the ECJ deciding on issues concerning the UK appear to you? It is unacceptable to half of the UK.
This is the only arguement presented by the brexit supporters which in my opinion has substance. I do not agree with it but can accept that it may find resonance with a significant body of people who would view themselves as patriotic.
 
A lot of MPs don't have much of a spine.
They changed their mind after the referendum.
They didn't change their mind....

They are just currently saying they will "bow to the will of the people" however if you follow lots of MPs actually tweets etc etc, they are starting to acknowledge that the "will of the people" can not always be trusted, and certainly isn't best for the country.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I am afraid that nationality matters to half of the UK.
The benefit to the UK is secondary.
If you stand in the street and ask people: do you know what the ECJ does? I bet no one will say 'stop the UK government pay welfare benefits to EU citizens who are economically inactive'. If you ask 'how many UK judges sit in the ECJ?' Most will think none (2 out of 47 is the correct answer).
You surprise me even posting this. The ignorance of the public is no excuse for anything.

How can the nationality of judges be more important than the immense value of the judgements we've received from the two European Courts, reversing so many wrongs?

And to say the benefit is secondary to nationality verges upon evil, nationality in this context being akin to racism.

A European judge is a judge, appointed as such by their nations according to standards we all recognise. Their nationality is no more relevant in their dispensation of justice than their race or colour.
.
 

Danidl

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I am puzzled by Mr Corbyn's response.
Would it be more logical for Labour to vote against triggering A50 to force the government to adopt their plan of better brexit?

As an outsider, I have been bewildered by the lackluster response from Labour.
 
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oldgroaner

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I .Would agree with you on this point that putting people into two camps and then insulting the other camp is divisive. Using terms like brexidoit or remoaner should be banned from any civilised debate.Even my spelling checker agrees with me and I have to fight it to put in these nonsense words.
This is meant in jest...
But it let's you get away with everything else?
:rolleyes:
Come on give us a smile :)
 

Danidl

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They are worried about their jobs. They are worried that they will get voted out at the next general election.

Yesterday Supreme Court ruling back up the recongnised fact that the referendum was just an official opinion poll. It was not legally binding.

So the MPs just have to decide how much weight they place on public opinion.

Just two points
1. The supreme court ruling was on the legality of parliament having the final say rather than the executive , and they were not ruling on the advisory nature of the referendum.
2. Since the public opinion is basically evenly split, they can safely make up their own minds as they will find equal amounts of approval and approbation
 
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