Brexit, for once some facts.

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Seems a policy of remainers to have an " us and them" ; " north and south" ; " informed and uninformed" mentality.
I don't think it helps , its actually divisive ; insulting and damaging to us ever getting mutually beneficial result .
I suppose us Remoaners still cannot see a good outcome for our country post Brexit. The government could help by giving us a vision of post Brexit advantages,they don't because they also don't have a clue how all this is going to turn out. This woolly 'grasp the opportunities','free trade capital of the world' rhetoric is just more May sound bites,I just don't see how we can expand our trade with the rest of the world,we are not restricted much at present,the EU restricts goods coming in,but there are currently few restrictions to export.
At least with Trump we can see where he is headed,putting up tariff walls against any country which is a threat to America,we may not approve but we can see his end game....with May we haven't a clue what the end game will be.
Remainers are attempting to see the future but I haven't met a Leaver who has put any thought into life post Brexit.
KudosDave
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
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Lets be realistic OG, in approaching 10,000 posts you have not accepted a single justified reason for Brexit so I doubt I can offer any...
Surprise me by pointing to a single justified reason that has been offered?
And how about responding to post #9672 instead of offering evasion?
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
Seems a policy of remainers to have an " us and them" ; " north and south" ; " informed and uninformed" mentality.
I don't think it helps , its actually divisive ; insulting and damaging to us ever getting mutually beneficial result .
The only way to get beneficial results is to remain in the EU
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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Suggested Amendment to the Article 50 Bill
All promises made at the time of the referendum
(list at this point)
Have to be achieved in full or Brexit is to be regarded as cancelled as unachieveable.
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,334
16,856
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
I am puzzled by Mr Corbyn's response.
Would it be more logical for Labour to vote against triggering A50 to force the government to adopt their plan of better brexit?
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Would it be more logical for Labour to vote against triggering A50 to force the government to adopt their plan of better brexit?
Yes and no! All opposition groups should stand opposed to this A50 nonsense as there is no better 'Brexit' - any form of EU exit will leave the people of the UK worse off than we have been as full members.

To accept any kind of diluted or modified 'Brexit' would be like thanking your torturer for only cutting off one of your arms and legs instead of all of them as he threatened to do.

Even 216 days after the referendum, the 'Brexit' drivers and the 'Brexidiots' who believed all their lies, cannot provide one shred of evidence to support the myth they created about the country being better off by leaving the EU. In this forum, those continuing to advocate 'Brexit' have been asked repeatedly to tell us how and when the nation will be better off and they have singularly failed to provide any answer, relying on rhetoric and evasion to hide the paucity of their case.

They don't know anything but they intend to drag everyone in the country with them into political and economic isolation.

Tom
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,334
16,856
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
They don't know anything but they intend to drag everyone in the country with them into political and economic isolation.

Tom
These issues, important though they are, are they not secondary to control of our own laws?
 
Something to digest.

From Peter French

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT NEWS POST I HAVE EVER HAD TO POST. PLEASE READ AND SHARE !!

Firstly I apologise for the dramatic headline but what I am about to impart has never mattered so much as it does now.
I have just come back from an important meeting at the House of Lords and this time I cannot divulge with whom because of the situation in Parliament tonight. I was shown evidence of hate in an email directed to a Lord that you cannot imagine. I was speechless and horrified as I read it and now understand why I must now respect anonymity here.
In essence everyone is worried, because it is now evident that there is no stopping or delaying Article 50 being invoked. Furthermore it is likely it will happen very soon, by 9th March as already suggested if not sooner. A bill will be introduced on Thursday and it is more than likely that it will be passed. I was given a copy of the full statement issued to all MP's and the Lords today by the government and there is one sentence which, as I said when I read it, is clearly a barbed threat. They see it as a deliberate threat.

"I trust no-one will seek to make it a vehicle for attempts to thwart the will of the people, or to frustrate or delay the process of our exit from the EU"

Some MPs will of course vote against but it is also clear that those MPs who disagree but who don't wish to vote against their party will abstain. The mood in the House of Lords is very sombre tonight.
Theresa May is hellbent on going through with this. The prediction is the country will be destroyed by this.
I have been asked to relay the following back to all of you. To the whole Pro-EU movement and beyond.

They regard the march now as absolutely the most crucial event that can happen. It was agreed as I had suggested in my last news update that it has never mattered as much as it does now. I was told that it must, must be the biggest march the country has ever seen. And yes, Article 50 will have been triggered by then but as was agreed with me tonight, that means the march is even more significant. We need to, we must, show this government the strength of feeling.
So please I beg you all, the one way we can make an impression and show our strength and get support from Pro EU MPs and Lords is to stage the biggest march ever. That was their advice.
I urge you now to share details of the march anywhere and everywhere you can. Many people regardless of how they voted never imagined we would be leaving the single market and those are the people we need to encourage most to join the march. We need your help at Unite for Europe to spread the word. And we need this to be the biggest march ever. We also launched a crowdfunding campaign to pay for the march and a national advertising campaign, to run alongside all the efforts we are making to obtain free publicity. I plead with you all to please contribute, please help us make this possible.
http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/unite-for-europe-national-marc…

Secondly I was told they will help us. They are at a loss what else to do. So if we have suggestions for them they will help us. I will now be in constant contact with them. An MP is also arranging for me to attend some very influential meetings coming up.
Thirdly they suggest everyone get in touch with your MPs immediately and again voice your concern where you have to and support those MP's who are Pro remain.
It was also said that what is happening here is being reported on very differently in the European press. One European newspaper said "Theresa May doesn't have a clue what she's doing". It was suggested it might be useful to get the European news editorials shared here.
And lastly it was suggested that it would be helpful if I could gain just a percentage of numbers of the Lords replies to members, in favour of remaining.

As I said in my last update,
16 million voted to remain. How many of the 16 million and more can we amass on the streets of London on the 25th March.
Please try all you can to join this march. One united march, in one united purpose, marching upon Parliament to show this Government our will.
Let's make this the biggest march yet, if not the single biggest march the capital and the country has ever seen on the single most important issue facing the future of this country.
Our future depends on it.
The next generation's future depends on it. And beyond.
Join us.
We only get one chance at this, one chance to make an impact like this, and
one chance to make our voices heard in this way.
Brexit is not in my name.
Peter French

Unite For Europe
Saturday 25th March London
11am start.
Park Lane, London
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,334
16,856
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Which we have never surrendered?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
It's not a question of how much control we have surrendered. It is the idea that we surrender any at all.
How does the idea of judges of a different nationality sit in the ECJ deciding on issues concerning the UK appear to you? It is unacceptable to half of the UK.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
It's not a question of how much control we have surrendered. It is the idea that we surrender any at all.
How does the idea of judges of a different nationality sit in the ECJ deciding on issues concerning the UK appear to you? It is unacceptable to half of the UK.
Since we are all Citizens of the EU where do you get this lunatic notion that the judges are of a different Nationality discredits their authority any more than I being of Scottish ancestry should refuse to accept English judges as being bona fide?

The statement you just aired is such arrant nonsense it beggars belief that any person could be stupid enough to think it valid.

That half the population believe that is both incredible and a worrying sign for the future, that they can be taken in so easily.

All trade deal requires us to share so called sovereignty to some degree, make them with either China or America, and you surrender a hell of a lot more of it to Corporate power than you ever have to the EU.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
Something to digest.

From Peter French

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT NEWS POST I HAVE EVER HAD TO POST. PLEASE READ AND SHARE !!

Firstly I apologise for the dramatic headline but what I am about to impart has never mattered so much as it does now.
I have just come back from an important meeting at the House of Lords and this time I cannot divulge with whom because of the situation in Parliament tonight. I was shown evidence of hate in an email directed to a Lord that you cannot imagine. I was speechless and horrified as I read it and now understand why I must now respect anonymity here.
In essence everyone is worried, because it is now evident that there is no stopping or delaying Article 50 being invoked. Furthermore it is likely it will happen very soon, by 9th March as already suggested if not sooner. A bill will be introduced on Thursday and it is more than likely that it will be passed. I was given a copy of the full statement issued to all MP's and the Lords today by the government and there is one sentence which, as I said when I read it, is clearly a barbed threat. They see it as a deliberate threat.

"I trust no-one will seek to make it a vehicle for attempts to thwart the will of the people, or to frustrate or delay the process of our exit from the EU"

Some MPs will of course vote against but it is also clear that those MPs who disagree but who don't wish to vote against their party will abstain. The mood in the House of Lords is very sombre tonight.
Theresa May is hellbent on going through with this. The prediction is the country will be destroyed by this.
I have been asked to relay the following back to all of you. To the whole Pro-EU movement and beyond.

They regard the march now as absolutely the most crucial event that can happen. It was agreed as I had suggested in my last news update that it has never mattered as much as it does now. I was told that it must, must be the biggest march the country has ever seen. And yes, Article 50 will have been triggered by then but as was agreed with me tonight, that means the march is even more significant. We need to, we must, show this government the strength of feeling.
So please I beg you all, the one way we can make an impression and show our strength and get support from Pro EU MPs and Lords is to stage the biggest march ever. That was their advice.
I urge you now to share details of the march anywhere and everywhere you can. Many people regardless of how they voted never imagined we would be leaving the single market and those are the people we need to encourage most to join the march. We need your help at Unite for Europe to spread the word. And we need this to be the biggest march ever. We also launched a crowdfunding campaign to pay for the march and a national advertising campaign, to run alongside all the efforts we are making to obtain free publicity. I plead with you all to please contribute, please help us make this possible.
http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/unite-for-europe-national-marc…

Secondly I was told they will help us. They are at a loss what else to do. So if we have suggestions for them they will help us. I will now be in constant contact with them. An MP is also arranging for me to attend some very influential meetings coming up.
Thirdly they suggest everyone get in touch with your MPs immediately and again voice your concern where you have to and support those MP's who are Pro remain.
It was also said that what is happening here is being reported on very differently in the European press. One European newspaper said "Theresa May doesn't have a clue what she's doing". It was suggested it might be useful to get the European news editorials shared here.
And lastly it was suggested that it would be helpful if I could gain just a percentage of numbers of the Lords replies to members, in favour of remaining.

As I said in my last update,
16 million voted to remain. How many of the 16 million and more can we amass on the streets of London on the 25th March.
Please try all you can to join this march. One united march, in one united purpose, marching upon Parliament to show this Government our will.
Let's make this the biggest march yet, if not the single biggest march the capital and the country has ever seen on the single most important issue facing the future of this country.
Our future depends on it.
The next generation's future depends on it. And beyond.
Join us.
We only get one chance at this, one chance to make an impact like this, and
one chance to make our voices heard in this way.
Brexit is not in my name.
Peter French

Unite For Europe
Saturday 25th March London
11am start.
Park Lane, London
Futile! it will not, sadly, make a Tinker's cuss of difference. It will be like the anti war Marches, ignored completely.
When stupidity reaches the pandemic scale it has there is no preventing the inevitable crash.
We simply have to wait, watch, and be ready to clear up the mess afterwards.
 
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Futile, it will not, sadly make a Tinker's cuss of difference.
Well, don't forget all it has to do is show the MPs who were pro-remain that they don't risk loosing their seats at the next election. That's all they are worried about.

They also really want to be on the right side of history, and we'll find out if they are or not pretty quickly in this case.

Also, from the MPs code of conduct.

6. Members have a general duty to act in the interests of the nation as a whole; and a special duty to their constituents.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmcode/1076/107602.htm#a4

There is nothing about pandering to a popular view, otherwise we'd have hanging.
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,334
16,856
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Since we are all Citizens of the EU where do you get this lunatic notion that the judges are of a different Nationality discredits their authority any more than I being of Scottish ancestry should refuse to accept English judges as being bona fide?

The statement you just aired is such arrant nonsense it beggars belief that any person could be stupid enough to think it valid.

That half the population believe that is both incredible and a worrying sign for the future, that they can be taken in so easily.

All trade deal requires us to share so called sovereignty to some degree, make them with either China or America, and you surrender a hell of a lot more of it to Corporate power than you ever have to the EU.
You wanted to know why brexit, I gave you the reason.
Let's go back to the 50s, why did so many ex-colonies want their independence?
They don't want English judges.
 
Then how can one explain that they are taking the result of the referendum seriously? they should have simply pointed out they are not bound by it and said No.
They are worried about their jobs. They are worried that they will get voted out at the next general election.

Yesterday Supreme Court ruling back up the recongnised fact that the referendum was just an official opinion poll. It was not legally binding.

So the MPs just have to decide how much weight they place on public opinion.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
It's not a question of how much control we have surrendered. It is the idea that we surrender any at all.
How does the idea of judges of a different nationality sit in the ECJ deciding on issues concerning the UK appear to you? It is unacceptable to half of the UK.
Woosh, you are so far wrong that I think you must be posting now with a view to winding people up. EU judges have never created any laws that we didn't agree with. We have surrendered nothing but have gained many pieces of important legislation which improves upon existing or previous legislation in the UK.

This part of your post is particularly ludicrous:

How does the idea of judges of a different nationality sit in the ECJ deciding on issues concerning the UK appear to you?
Apart from that sentence having a somewhat racist tone, have you ever asked an Irishman or a Scot how they feel about having people in England creating laws which apply to people in another country?

Tom
 
Woosh, you are so far wrong that I think you must be posting now with a view to winding people up. EU judges have never created any laws that we didn't agree with. We have surrendered nothing but have gained many pieces of important legislation which improves upon existing or previous legislation in the UK.

This part of your post is particularly ludicrous:



Apart from that sentence having a somewhat racist tone, have you ever asked an Irishman or a Scot how they feel about having people in England creating laws which apply to people in another country?

Tom
worryingly its not just a view held by some people in the UK... check out a certain Mr Trump thinking that a judge shouldn't be allowed to rule on a case because of his heritage.

 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,334
16,856
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Apart from that sentence having a somewhat racist tone, have you ever asked an Irishman or a Scot how they feel about having people in England creating laws which apply to people in another country?

Tom
That's why I predict that brexit (even soft brexit) will lead to Scottish and N. Irish independence.

I think we can have a totally rational, politically correct discussion about brexit. Not many posters bother about political correctness but I sincerely do.
 
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