Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

I'm pleased to hear that you are coming around to the idea of BREXIT.

Actually I haven't changed my opinion in any way. as I said before the only way to get through to the public is for them to experience and suffer the consequences of their action, and the sooner the better so, we can put this crazy episode behind us and rejoin the EU.

With by then a glimmer of understanding how greedy, arrogant and stupid we were when we were members and threw it away by trusting the words of pathological liars.

 

[Zlatan]

As usual you missed the point entirely

"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five."
Groucho Marx

I,ll assume thats just a single mistaken shot under our armistace OG...
No, I didn't miss point at all.You did.
If MPs ,as they now suggest, vote to invoke article 50, the remain campaign have,even if for right motives,seriously damaged our bargaining position. Everybody will know exactly what May wants post debate. If MP,s vote not to invoke 50 then I get the point. Giving away any detail in name of due democratic process is (IMO) silly, even more so when it has changed nothing, apart from a priviliged few's bank accounts.

MPs should have simply said straight away they would vote to invoke art 50 and declined possibility of white paper/ debate / amendments in public interest..
Or they should stop it by voting no.
This is just another example of procrastination damaging a possibly positive outcome.
Yet still, nobody knows what we are doing..Owen Smith suggests he can prevent art 50 being invoked.
The whole process is being dragged on and on only in name of due process. Nobody really cared about it, the remainers are simply buying time and damaging process.

 

[oldgroaner]

I,ll assume thats just a single mistaken shot under our armistace OG...
No, I didn't miss point at all.You did.
If MPs ,as they now suggest, vote to invoke article 50, the remain campaign have,even if for right motives,seriously damaged our bargaining position. Everybody will know exactly what May wants post debate. If MP,s vote not to invoke 50 then I get the point. Giving away any detail in name of due democratic process is (IMO) silly, even more so when it has changed nothing, apart from a priviliged few's bank accounts.

MPs should have simply said straight away they would vote to invoke art 50 and declined possibility of white paper/ debate / amendments in public interest..
Or they should stop it by voting no.
This is just another example of procrastination damaging a possibly positive outcome.
Yet still, nobody knows what we are doing..Owen Smith suggests he can prevent art 50 being invoked.
The whole process is being dragged on and on only in name of due process. Nobody really cared about it, the remainers are simply buying time and damaging process.

But you DID miss the point the MP's have said they will not vote against article 50
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mps-voted-against-triggering-article-9412477
The MPs voting against comprised 51 from the SNP , 23 from Labour, five Lib Dems and Green Party leader Caroline Lucas.
It's a done deal
lets face it it isn't really a matter of what we ask for, but what the EU concede.

 

[Zlatan]

But you DID miss the point the MP's have said they will not vote against article 50
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mps-voted-against-triggering-article-9412477
The MPs voting against comprised 51 from the SNP , 23 from Labour, five Lib Dems and Green Party leader Caroline Lucas.
It's a done deal

No I didn't OG. I heard that , saw interviews and read that report.
Yes, I accept its being done on ideals of due process but as I said...if that's case due process is irrelevant, its merely playing with our processes to gain breathing space for remain and in doing so damaging our bargaining position. The whole world will know our requirements. It wont be a negotiation, it will be " none a la DeGaulle"....

Yes,if MPs vote against art 50, well yes that is democratic process at work. If they vote yes its paying lip service and spilling beans. Its you that's missing point OG. (btw , listen to Owen Smith, the no vote is possible..arent you used to experts being wrong yet ??

How on earth can they hold negotiations when the whole issue has been debated in house ??? Its ridiculous. Nobody will need attend , EU can either rubber stamp what we want, or they say "feck off"..I suggest the latter.
There can now be no secret agreements, no bargaining or give and take. Its all going to be out in the open, well our demands will be. Perhaps we should get EU to debate their requirements ...bet they don't though..

 

[oldgroaner]

Perhaps we should get EU to debate their requirements ...bet they don't though..

They have been doing so throughout the past three months!
"
European officials are working on a three-step model to smooth Britain’s exit from the European Union, including arrangements for a time-limited transition deal.

The EU’s chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has won broad agreement from the other 27 countries, plus MEPs, for his three-phase divorce plan, according to senior diplomats and officials. It would consist of withdrawal, transition and then a “new relationship.”
The transition phase would be subject to a number of “sunset clauses” to ensure that Britain doesn’t retain the benefits of membership indefinitely, while the shape of the new relationship would be sketched out by Theresa May in her Article 50 divorce letter due by the end of March.

In a speech to EU leaders over lunch at a summit in Brussels on Thursday, the outgoing president of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, voiced his support: “The three-phase model that the Commission has chosen to base its work on is indeed the right one.”

This format would provide clarity and allow “a rapid conclusion of the withdrawal agreement,” he said. In a boost for U.K. ministers pushing for a transition deal — including Philip Hammond, the chancellor of the exchequer — Schulz told EU leaders the three-stage exit would permit “an orderly, and gradual move towards the new relationship.”

Seems clear enough

 

[Zlatan]

T

They have been doing so throughout the past three months!
"
European officials are working on a three-step model to smooth Britain’s exit from the European Union, including arrangements for a time-limited transition deal.

The EU’s chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has won broad agreement from the other 27 countries, plus MEPs, for his three-phase divorce plan, according to senior diplomats and officials. It would consist of withdrawal, transition and then a “new relationship.”
The transition phase would be subject to a number of “sunset clauses” to ensure that Britain doesn’t retain the benefits of membership indefinitely, while the shape of the new relationship would be sketched out by Theresa May in her Article 50 divorce letter due by the end of March.

In a speech to EU leaders over lunch at a summit in Brussels on Thursday, the outgoing president of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, voiced his support: “The three-phase model that the Commission has chosen to base its work on is indeed the right one.”

This format would provide clarity and allow “a rapid conclusion of the withdrawal agreement,” he said. In a boost for U.K. ministers pushing for a transition deal — including Philip Hammond, the chancellor of the exchequer — Schulz told EU leaders the three-stage exit would permit “an orderly, and gradual move towards the new relationship.”

Seems clear enough

Good point OG, but I don't think we will know their minute details, minimum requirements until negotiation time. Looks like they will know ours as good as we do. ( but that's bot difficult at moment)
My five year old grandson says I,m right...he always does tho.

 

[Danidl]

You really should have gone to Specsavers!

If I can misquote an old Monty python line
"You have insulted the good name of Brexit
To which the answer is of course
Don't be ridiculous Brexit hasn't got a good name!"

Face facts when the referendum vote was taken those who voted to remain knew what they were doing and what to expect

Those who voted to leave the EU believed a pack of lies and promises from blaggards who fled the field at warp factor ten, and that includes the imbecile Cameron who made the rash promise to abide by this hideously stupid decision

They had no idea of what would happen, and they still don't. as the right wing press is still selling them the same lies, and no one is even trying to get the truth to the public.

History will record this as an act of Collective Self Harming Insanity.
I'm all in favour of this Article 50 business, after all it's pretty much like watching motor racing in the hope of seeing some spectacular crashes.
Bring it on!

If only It were as simple and binary as that. In your hopes, the people will eventually come to ,their sense 's, kick out the bad guys and live happily ever after. If I have learned anything in 65 years it is that this type of learning will not occur. More likely they will scapegoat those who correctly predicted doom and gloom and wallow in victimhood.
How many British people want to see the UK become the new Albania surrounded by richer countries operating free trade agreements?.
I would prefer that they did not suffer that fate and would basically wish to protect them from their momentary folly so I hope that there will be robust questioning in your parliment before the article 50 process is triggered.
Make no mistake about it, article 50 is the start of an irreversible process and the Westminster parliment will have no say in what the EU concludes with.

 

[oldgroaner]

I would prefer that they did not suffer that fate and would basically wish to protect them from their momentary folly so I hope that there will be robust questioning in your parliment before the article 50 process is triggered.
Make no mistake about it, article 50 is the start of an irreversible process and the Westminster parliment will have no say in what the EU concludes with.

So would I, and agree with your sentiments, but somewhere over the years I have lost faith in miracles alas!

 

[oldtom]

Couldn't resist this:




Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

It really is time that papers like the Daily Mail stopped these attacks of anyone that they deem not having an acceptable attitude to "The will of the people"
"'There is NO turning back!' David Davis warns Remoaner MPs they will face the full wrath of the public if they use Supreme Court ruling to block Brexit

The wrath of the people? which people are those? the thirty odd percent that voted for this farce or the near 70% that didn't?

And naming and attempting to shame the high court judges that found against TM employing Dictatorial powers is really reaching the point of being contempt of court.

If Brexit turns out badly it would be a brave person that admits they voted for it, never mind these juvenile threats from Farage and the loony right wing press and it's supporters

 

[oldgroaner]

T

Good point OG, but I don't think we will know their minute details, minimum requirements until negotiation time. Looks like they will know ours as good as we do. ( but that's bot difficult at moment)
My five year old grandson says I,m right...he always does tho.

Here is something for you to ponder on

The 27 other European Governments have debated about what to do, without being frightened of "Giving away" their strategy.

No doubt there must have been dissenting voices in there, how is it they can do this with 27 separate parliaments and we can't let our Four legislative authorities do the same, and have to rely on four incompetent donkeys and an old power mad woman to think and decide what is best for 65 millions of us, half of whom don't want it to happen anyway and they decide to keep it all a big secret?

It is our future these imbeciles are treating as a personal poker game that they own.

This is making us look bloody stupid in front of the entire world.

Give me an argument justifying our position that has even the beginning of a hope of not sounding utterly daft?

 

[oldtom]

We have reached a point now where the government has been shown to be lacking fundamental knowledge of parliamentary procedure or more likely, attempting to ride roughshod over it, in determining how a sovereign parliament disposes of a referendum result which split the nation.

The tories have tried to blag their way through the mess of 'Brexit by claiming that they had no need to consult parliament over the outcome of a national, non-binding referendum. They have been found to be liars (again), this time by the highest court in the land. Undeterred even now, their propaganda agencies, particularly the BBC, are at work interviewing and broadcasting all the leading 'Brexidiot' tory politicians, who are voicing their disdain for parliamentary process again by claiming that politicians of all parties must respect the will of the people as adjudged on June 23rd last and must not impede the progress of the implementation of A50.

This is not how democracy works. They are simply trying to railroad the matter through parliament as if it were a fait accompli. The first step must be to ensure that A50 is not invoked. Let them then debate the matter in the Commons with a free vote and see if they really have a mandate. I believe it behoves all opposition parties to prevent these fascists from leading the country out of the EU, at least until such time as there exists a plan which will allow all the British people to see clearly how such an exit might be beneficial. As things stand, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that there will be any benefit for the British people from exiting the EU.

This matter is worthy of a general election - that's where the people decide which party's manifesto is the one they wish to be governed by. Jeremy Corbyn, well-principled chap that he is, leads the party that represents the poorest in society, the workers who have no say as to how much of their earnings they will pay in tax, the sick, the disabled, the pensioners and all those on the social scrapheap thanks to unbroken capitalist government since 1979. Corbyn really needs to stop supporting the notion that the referendum result is the will of the people and equates to democracy. It does not and should not be confused with parliamentary democracy enshrined in law within a sovereign parliament.

None of those people who may have voted, for whatever reason, to support 'Brexit' voted to make themselves poorer. Neither did they vote to bring inflation back into the economy, nor to make their foreign holidays more expensive. Those of a non-British background resident in the UK didn't vote to make themselves insecure in their adopted country, in fear of being deported by a fascist government. European integration is the future and membership of the EU guarantees many rights and privileges, not only for the British people but for all European states and their peoples. The only union that is past its sell-by date is the United Kingdom, thanks to capitalist greed.

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

I'm touched by your benevolence towards the northern poor. How lucky they are to have you as their guardian angle. There to deliver them from ignorance and stupidity.

Alternatively, they might not give a monkey's chuff what you think.

I am hardly benevolent towards the poor,just concerned when they realise that they have been conned,Hammond and May are only interested in their right wing ideology.
I think you mean guardian 'Angel' not 'angle' but maybe it's a matter of degree.
You are right the poor don't care what I think but Brexit showed that they are bothered to improve their lifestyle and try to overcome the inequality of income in the UK. Unfortunately I am certain that Brexit will have the opposite effect,the rich will get richer,the poor will get poorer,that is already happening.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

Here is something for you to ponder on

The 27 other European Governments have debated about what to do, without being frightened of "Giving away" their strategy.

No doubt there must have been dissenting voices in there, how is it they can do this with 27 separate parliaments and we can't let our Four legislative authorities do the same, and have to rely on four incompetent donkeys and an old power mad woman to think and decide what is best for 65 millions of us, half of whom don't want it to happen anyway and they decide to keep it all a big secret?

It is our future these imbeciles are treating as a personal poker game that they own.

This is making us look bloody stupid in front of the entire world.

Give me an argument justifying our position that has even the beginning of a hope of not sounding utterly daft?

Lets be realistic OG, in approaching 10,000 posts you have not accepted a single justified reason for Brexit so I doubt I can offer any...

Tom
Actually thought your post good but what would point be of a general election ? There is no alternative viable government.

 

[Kudoscycles]

We have reached a point now where the government has been shown to be lacking fundamental knowledge of parliamentary procedure or more likely, attempting to ride roughshod over it, in determining how a sovereign parliament disposes of a referendum result which split the nation.

The tories have tried to blag their way through the mess of 'Brexit by claiming that they had no need to consult parliament over the outcome of a national, non-binding referendum. They have been found to be liars (again), this time by the highest court in the land. Undeterred even now, their propaganda agencies, particularly the BBC, are at work interviewing and broadcasting all the leading 'Brexidiot' tory politicians, who are voicing their disdain for parliamentary process again by claiming that politicians of all parties must respect the will of the people as adjudged on June 23rd last and must not impede the progress of the implementation of A50.

This is not how democracy works. They are simply trying to railroad the matter through parliament as if it were a fait accompli. The first step must be to ensure that A50 is not invoked. Let them then debate the matter in the Commons with a free vote and see if they really have a mandate. I believe it behoves all opposition parties to prevent these fascists from leading the country out of the EU, at least until such time as there exists a plan which will allow all the British people to see clearly how such an exit might be beneficial. As things stand, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that there will be any benefit for the British people from exiting the EU.

This matter is worthy of a general election - that's where the people decide which party's manifesto is the one they wish to be governed by. Jeremy Corbyn, well-principled chap that he is, leads the party that represents the poorest in society, the workers who have no say as to how much of their earnings they will pay in tax, the sick, the disabled, the pensioners and all those on the social scrapheap thanks to unbroken capitalist government since 1979. Corbyn really needs to stop supporting the notion that the referendum result is the will of the people and equates to democracy. It does not and should not be confused with parliamentary democracy enshrined in law within a sovereign parliament.

None of those people who may have voted, for whatever reason, to support 'Brexit' voted to make themselves poorer. Neither did they vote to bring inflation back into the economy, nor to make their foreign holidays more expensive. Those of a non-British background resident in the UK didn't vote to make themselves insecure in their adopted country, in fear of being deported by a fascist government. European integration is the future and membership of the EU guarantees many rights and privileges, not only for the British people but for all European states and their peoples. The only union that is past its sell-by date is the United Kingdom, thanks to capitalist greed.

Tom

Tom,
The problem with a general election is that May will win it,she will mix Brexit in with a whole series of motions in a manifesto that no Tory would consider voting against it. Like the way she hijacked the last vote by amending the core vote and adding the timescale.
Let's be honest she really doesn't have a credible opposition to oppose her.
I think we need a second referendum now that the electorate is much more knowledgeable as to what Brexit really means.
KudosDave

 

[anotherkiwi]

It is probably less daft than giving power to a an ignorant sex maniac

Lets be realistic OG, in approaching 10,000 posts you have not accepted a single justified reason for Brexit so I doubt I can offer any...

There were good reasons? I must have missed them.

 

[Zlatan]

It is probably less daft than giving power to a an ignorant sex maniac


There were good reasons? I must have missed them.

Yes , I guess you would...

 

[Kudoscycles]

OMG.....Leavers are marching on Wetherspoons,Farage is crying in his beer,Leavers want Brexit stopped immediately....what has caused this change of heart.....Heiniken and Carlsberg beers are to be increased in price,3% at first,15% when the full effects of the currency weakness are realised.
59p on a pint in London....OMG.
At last a product that really will shake the foundations of the northern powerhouse....May will have to have an emergency cabinet meeting....oh,I forgot she is off to the US on Friday....always away when bad news happens.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

Seems a policy of remainers to have an " us and them" ; " north and south" ; " informed and uninformed" mentality.
I don't think it helps , its actually divisive ; insulting and damaging to us ever getting mutually beneficial result .

 

[Kudoscycles]

What really bugs me is this 'will of the people' must be satisfied.
The will of the people should be satisfied in full.....not just Brexit but the £350 million per week that Boris promised,the people would like social care to be properly funded,the people would like hospitals to be opened and properly funded,the people would like a strong armed forces,the people would like a spread of wealth across our country and so on. But all these 'will of the people' wish lists are ignored because we can't afford them but Brexit must satisfy the will of the people,what is so special about Brexit?
Am amendment that forces the government to underwrite the £350 million would be an amusing addition to the Article 50 parliament vote.
An amendment that forces the government into having to retain the single market would make Brexit including immigration control pretty much impossible,hehe!
KudosDave