Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Daniel
I,ve not answered your question because if you read thread there has been a whole raft of reasons you simply choose to dismiss,ignore or degenerate the folk making them.
For a start there are many economists ( who I,ve listed time and time before) who say we will be stronger economically out of EU. The EU represents a diminishing portion of world trade. In the 70's it was a massive part. That is no longer the case. We want ,need free access to the emerging markets,which within EU we are not entitled.
Many areas of Britain have completely lost their identity, in some cases that's for benefit! But other areas remain completely unaffected. Our immigrant policy, foistered on us is not working. That situation is replicated eu wide, with areas of Germany and France loosing their identities, whilst other areas prosper on the backs of us all.( Luxembourg)
Leavers are not against immigration, they are against such as Junkers having control of it over UK.

The EU is a massive political, economic and social experiment which if you examine massive portions of EU has failed. Merkel's policies have fir some ruined Germany. With or without us the EU is corrupt,( do some homework on Junkers,Greece and Italy) failing and doomed.
Its a matter if time before we,d have to go into euro zone. ( fact, never mind what everyone says on here) and where would our economy be had we joined euro...
Bailouts of Greece,Italy,Portugal,Ireland and Spain can not go on indefinitely. They need the power to devalue currency which in zone they can not, but instead rely on Germany ,France and to a lesser degree us. It has to change. Fact.

Like the Queen asked..give me 3 good reasons for staying ?

There isn't one.

 

[oldgroaner]

A good example of being arse-holier than thou! Well done you!

I have spent over 10 years at university as a student, a research student and towards the end of my time there, lecturing. Now that you are armed with this knowledge, I am confident that you will agree that just because material has been produced by university students or academic staff, it is no guarantee that it will be accepted by everyone as reliable fact.

Oh tillson I really really like your style, do let me know when you intend shooting yourself in the other foot!

I have always admired two things about you, secondly your undoubted intellect, but primarily your ability to make fun of yourself when you aren't even trying.
I remain your biggest fan.
And of course I agree with you completely!

 

[oldgroaner]

You say "unicorn", I say "knobhead".

Are you trying to displace Zlatan from handling off topic answers for some reason?

 

[oldgroaner]

I was wondering how long it would take before the opium war connection would be made.

Did I make your day?

 

[Zlatan]

Even if another referendum reverses the last, I doubt that the margin will be big enough to be convincing.
The only way is to remove the tories from power for a generation.

Totally agree but replace with what? Clegg ? Corbyn ? They are both jokes and incapable of offering a viable opposition never mind running country...
Blair ???? From behind bars ?
They could have put cat in as priminister and not lose to Corbyn.( or Blair ir Clegg) Mind you cat would be better than Cameron and his puppy.

 

[flecc]

Many areas of Britain have completely lost their identity, in some cases that's for benefit! But other areas remain completely unaffected. Our immigrant policy, foistered on us is not working. That situation is replicated eu wide, with areas of Germany and France loosing their identities

Not losing their identity, replacing it with a common European identity, a parallel with the multi-cultural identity that exists in the USA. They've done rather well with that, so could Europe.

Its a matter if time before we,d have to go into euro zone. ( fact, never mind what everyone says on here)

You keep repeating this lie, we have signed nothing that can enforce that, so it's not a fact. The current preparatory agreements are not in an enforceable state, it can only become a fact if asked to sign up to inclusion, at which time we can negotiate an exclusion or special treatment, just as we've done for so many other EU matters, Shenzhen and the EU membership cost rebate for example.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Three good reasons for staying asks the "Voice in the Wilderness"

1. The EU is not to blame for the mistakes made by local Governments
2. It cares far more that Local Governments do for the Public, even though it is frequently blamed for their misdeeds
3. Out of it we will be left at the mercy of the worst set of incompetents that any country has had to suffer in a generation.

 

[Lister]

Link to an interesting article-pdf format.

http://www.brunswickgroup.com/publications/reports/brexit-in-perspective/

 

[flecc]

Just heard impressionist Jane Raven's humorous description of Theresa May:

"She's so below the radar. She just sits there, does nothing and waits for the posh boy to screw up".
.

 

[Zlatan]

Not losing their identity, replacing it with a common European identity, a parallel with the multi-cultural identity that exists in the USA. They've done rather well with that, so could Europe.



You keep repeating this lie, we have signed nothing that can enforce that, so it's not a fact. The current preparatory agreements are not in an enforceable state, it can only become a fact if asked to sign up to inclusion, at which time we can negotiate an exclusion or special treatment, just as we've done for so many other EU matters, Shenzhen and the EU membership cost rebate for example.
.

I actually agree on both points flecc but firstly ...
In grandaughters class of 20 kids,,she,s 8) there are 5 Punjab ,5 Urdu, 3 polish ,1 Latvian and rest English speakers,which is fine. Its great for her, seeing other cultures etc etc but 40 miles away sister's grandson ( same age) are all English...why the disparity and accepted that isn't an EU issue but same applies on national basis. And why are policies over such a central issue decided in EU ? Should be our decision.

On the euro, agreed not a fact on a certain date. Its inevitable "eventually" if we stay. ( All zone heads of state said as much and even stated an optimistic time scale of by 2020...We both know it would happen if we stayed, there would be little point staying if it doesn't.
That's how eu has worked, it has been quite insidiuos in its gradual take over, compare 1970's legislation with today's. No comparison. Imagine eu control another 40 years down line. You might want that, which is fine, but I do not. We voted and most agreed with my point. We should have invoked art 50 by now, for all concerned. Fact.
Not convinced we ever will, which will be a travesty.

Seems Brexit now has quite high support. How come its taken this long her comments to come out ???

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I actually agree on both points flecc but firstly ...
In grandaughters class of 20 kids,,she,s 8) there are 5 Punjab ,5 Urdu, 3 polish ,1 Latvian and rest English speakers,which is fine. Its great for her, seeing other cultures etc etc but 40 miles away sister's grandson ( same age) are all English...why the disparity and accepted that isn't an EU issue but same applies on national basis. And why are policies over such a central issue decided in EU ? Should be our decision.

This is a fundamental problem... you're looking at the EU like its some foreign thing imposing things. Currently we are the EU. We are one of the decision makers, its not imposing anything we didn't agree with.

I really wonder if people's view of the EU would be different if the buildings where the counties meet were in the UK and not in Brussels and Strasbourg.

So we leave the EU, and now its London that viewed as the hub of power. How on earth do you see that the mix of cultures that you've highlighted is going to be any different. We're still going to need the labour, from overseas to power our economy.... unless of course this decision collapses it so we don't need such a growing workforce?

I say it again... it is our decision currently. WE ARE THE EU.

 

[oldgroaner]

We voted and most agreed with my point. We should have invoked art 50 by now,

May I remind you that in your own words you didn't vote either way?
We are not all level headed....its an invite for the aggressive and obsessed types to argue...seems to me most Brexiters have realised this and withdrawn. Only needs one extreme character ...luckily so far absent. ( I,m ashamed to say I didn't vote)

#7103Zlatan, Nov 26, 2016
Last edited: Nov 26, 2016

And now that has been converted to
"We voted and most agreed with my point. "
Which statement is a lie?

 

[Woosh]

I really wonder if people's view of the EU would be different if the buildings where the counties meet were in the UK and not in Brussels and Strasbourg.

Yes.

 

[oldtom]

There is everything to play for at present.
My preference is unequivocally that the UK is better placed both economically, socially, militarily by remaining within a strong block of 28 nations than seeking to go alone. I have asked on three occasions why others might think otherwise to a defening silence.

Good post Sir!

Yes, whenever a direct question is asked, as you have discovered, the 'leave' disciples don't seem to have any cogent answer. What should we read into this repeated refusal to describe the benefits from leaving the EU? Well, in my view, given that a very large proportion of the 'leavers' are the thickest, intellectually-barren individuals in society, I don't suppose we can expect much more from them.

As for the rest, including the pseudo-intellectuals in this forum for example, they are mainly racist, mainly tory voters whose dearest wish is for the UK government to commit political and economic suicide in the hope that through some miracle, we survive so that they can puff their chests out and bellow 'told you so!'

If the current fascist administration should ignore parliamentary democracy and actually initiate the A50 provisions, then frankly, the clowns who suffer the most, ie - the poor will deserve everything they get for being so stupid. It will be sad that lots of decent, hard-working people will have to suffer with them but such is life.

I am entitled to Irish citizenship, should I tire of this country but as I spend quite a bit of time in Spain anyway, I shan't have to put up with endless austerity in the UK.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Nice find Sir!

I have come across those words previously but I couldn't have told you whose words they were so thanks for putting it up.

It reminded me somewhat of this:



Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

I believe this isn't good news for any of us
"
Brexit: Theresa May's Article 50 plans set to be delayed by months due to Stormont crisis legal challenge
Exclusive: Alliance Party says PM could face court battle initiated by Northern Irish politicians if she tries to leave EU while the nation's assembly is not sitting

From the independent: surely not another delay?

 

[flecc]

I actually agree on both points flecc but firstly ...
In grandaughters class of 20 kids,,she,s 8) there are 5 Punjab ,5 Urdu, 3 polish ,1 Latvian and rest English speakers,which is fine. Its great for her, seeing other cultures etc etc but 40 miles away sister's grandson ( same age) are all English...why the disparity and accepted that isn't an EU issue but same applies on national basis. And why are policies over such a central issue decided in EU ?

Such things take time to settle and will even out. People naturally migrate to be with like people, so the range of mix in any one spot tends to reduce. It's always been like it here and not a problem, For example, Bedford is a town of 100,000 people but has 14,000 of them Italian. There's no complaints about that, simply because Bedford has been England's "Italian" town for so many decades. In other words, everyone's used to it and it isn't a problem. As I've posted before, change takes time so we have to be patient.

On the euro, agreed not a fact on a certain date. Its inevitable "eventually" if we stay. ( All zone heads of state said as much and even stated an optimistic time scale of by 2020...

This depends which way we went if staying in the EU.

On the one hand we might gradually agree more and more to integration and eventually one country called Europe, leading to us having the euro.

On the other hand we might choose to gradually separate more and more as we've been doing for the last 40 years by not signing up to integration policies. Brexit might become the next stage of that, still with some common things like paying to have market access, but generally outside of co-operative European policies like the common currency.

Our history of non co-operation during the last 44 years points to the second way being more much more likely.
.
.

 

[oldtom]

I believe this isn't good news for any of us

I agree with you OG but perhaps we are seeing, albeit rather belatedly, more and bigger groups of people waking up to the fact that there is no prize to be had by continuing with the 'Brexit' nonsense.

Worse still, we could all end up very badly off with only the 5% not even noticing any downturn in domestic buying power. Mind you, the super-rich should tread warily because when there is nothing left to cut - no more savings to be made, the poor masses will still need to eat.....!

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

OG
Its plainly evident I support leaving and yes I said I didn't vote, I also said my name is Zlatan and I live in north pole. All white lies to try and reduce the ** leavers get on here.. Seemed slightly more balanced to claim I,d " sat on fence"

Were you really christened Old Groaner...very perceptive parents..
Besides its totally OT ,which you normally object to, but again ironic since all your BS is ...
Just to point out the obvious....its an anonymous forum...we could all be some kids construct...Should be the opinions we have up for discussion, not the insults you and your buddy offer.
I dont think either of you can post without patronising, condescending or insulting...Unless its a cut and paste..

 

[Danidl]

I actually agree on both points flecc but firstly ...
In grandaughters class of 20 kids,,she,s 8) there are 5 Punjab ,5 Urdu, 3 polish ,1 Latvian and rest English speakers,which is fine. Its great for her, seeing other cultures etc etc but 40 miles away sister's grandson ( same age) are all English...why the disparity and accepted that isn't an EU issue but same applies on national basis. And why are policies over such a central issue decided in EU ? Should be our decision.

On the euro, agreed not a fact on a certain date. Its inevitable "eventually" if we stay. ( All zone heads of state said as much and even stated an optimistic time scale of by 2020...We both know it would happen if we stayed, there would be little point staying if it doesn't.
That's how eu has worked, it has been quite insidiuos in its gradual take over, compare 1970's legislation with today's. No comparison. Imagine eu control another 40 years down line. You might want that, which is fine, but I do not. We voted and most agreed with my point. We should have invoked art 50 by now, for all concerned. Fact.
Not convinced we ever will, which will be a travesty.

Seems Brexit now has quite high support. How come its taken this long her comments to come out ???

Hi Zlantan, I will respond to your substantial email at a later date, and I am grateful to you for responding. However in response to this current email, note that half of that class you are referring to have nothing to do with EU Immigration policy as the children are of non european extraction.

In the matter of UK joining into the Euro zone, I am in agreement with you, I do believe that it is inevitable particularly if UK remains or rejoins the EU Once the convience and cost savings are realised in not engaging in complex money changing is grasped, UK citizens will realise they have been hoodwinked for years. It may take another financial crisis like the 1990s( Cannot remember the exact year) speculation against a marginal currency ... Sterling but will inevitably happen .

The third point is that nothing happens in the EU without the agreement of the member states, so any of the policies to date with which you disagree were agreed by your national government, yes the EU has evolved, but only on the basis of agreement. This would also apply in any UK decision to join the eurozone.