Brexit, for once some facts.

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
I wonder what could be causing this swing? Is it that the people who vote in normal elections, like these, and general elections aren't quite the same as the people who came out for the one hit protest vote in June? We know lots of them voted for the first time. Is it that people aren't happy with the fact that they voted for something, they clearly aren't going to get?

Either way, the pro EU parties and candidates are doing very well.
Perhaps a general election based purely on constituency MPs' preference - in or out - would produce decent government?

That aside, I have absolutely no doubt that, were we to vote again in a referendum, with the information now available and the 'leave' proponents still unable to identify any ways in which the UK might be better off, there would be a massive swing to 'remain', sufficient to put the matter to bed for a generation or more.

Tom
 
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oldgroaner

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I think you are being unfair.

First of all, Zlatan has not attached himself to me. It just so happens that some of our views regarding BREXIT coincide. Just like some of your views coincide with those of old tom, kudos bloke, ktm man, flecc and others. You haven't attached yourselves to each other and neither have we. The idea is ridiculous.

I'm affraid that Zlatan is also correct regarding the insults levelled at those who support BREXIT. In some instances there have been direct insults and accusations of racism. Granted that on this forum these words mainly originate from old tom, and I will further concede that he is an arse-hole, thus mitigating the affect, but the overall sentiment is still present.

On top of this, there exists an unpleasant and generally sneering attitude towards BREXIT. A desire to portray supporters as being poorly educated, low paid, unskilled, racist, xenophobic, of low mental capacity, gullible, Daily Mail readers, thugs and so on. In other words, if it's something that people would not like to consider themselves as being, then it's BREXIT. And I think Zlatan is spot on, remain has totally and foolishly underestimated the BREXIT opposition both before and after the referendum. Many people have genuine concerns about our EU membership and instead of trying to engage with them and identifying with their concerns, remain have tried to insult them into submission. And that has back-fired in the most spectacular fashion imaginable.

The only attitudes which stand a chance of engaging with people are primarily the approach adopted by flecc and occasionally OG (when he isn't copy / paste the newspapers).

I strongly disagree with the idea of a second referendum, but if one was held, I believe that BREXIT would win again, but with a greater majority. And I also believe that if there is a cost to BREXIT, people will accept that cost as a price worth paying.
Lets look at some of those points shall we

"remain has totally and foolishly underestimated the BREXIT opposition both before and after the referendum."

Well you can't accuse me personally of that, can you?

"On top of this, there exists an unpleasant and generally sneering attitude towards BREXIT. A desire to portray supporters as being poorly educated, low paid, unskilled, racist, xenophobic, of low mental capacity, gullible, Daily Mail readers, thugs and so on. In other words, if it's something that people would not like to consider themselves as being, then it's BREXIT."

Most of that has been greatly exaggerated for effect by the right wing press and you know it, and let's be honest voting for a huge political change on nothing more than hopes and promises hardly invites favourable comments, now does it?
And you are conveniently forgetting the continuous Bile directed against "Remoaners" etc that covers the front pages of the Express and Daily Mail on a Daily basis, for which there is no equally vicious contrary opinion from the opposition in other newspapers, only very mild ripostes in the Guardian and Independent, which lack the spectacular level of lies being plied in the right wing press.

Even the main proponents of Brexit exited stage left at the first opportunity so as to avoid any blame attaching itself to them.
As a protest against the establishment it has failed utterly, as now all power to repeal beneficial legislation on the Environment ,employment, benefits and pretty much everything else that had caused public distress is even more powerfully gripped by the very people that have caused dissent in the public for a generation, but escaped the consequences by blaming the EU.

And then this
"And I also believe that if there is a cost to BREXIT, people will accept that cost as a price worth paying"

Will YOU accept this cost? what about the people who can't afford to?
pretty thoughtless to take that attitude " I'm alright Jack"

Brexit will prove to be the Biggest "Own Goal" in British History.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Although I try to avoid BBC TV as much as I can, there is an opportunity this evening for anyone sufficiently interested to see what Aaron Banks has to say on 'Brexit' and on the NHS.

I'm aware that the vast majority of 'leave' voters have absolutely no idea who Aaron Banks is so here is his picture, courtesy of AAV:
View attachment 17283

I also attach a little infographic illustrating the kind of people 'leavers' want to see running the UK and what may be expected from them in the not too distant future:
View attachment 17284

Tom
That entire post is utter BS propaganda you,ve bought into. Aaron banks made CEO if Southern Rock Insurance, you dont achieve that without having credibility. He initiated leave campaign and believe he contributed £6kk towards it. Yes, he had harrasment claims ( charges dropped) over company policy.
And he talked most sense last night.
Stop peddaling the propaganda Tom...you do exactly what you accuse leavers of doing..Believe the BS..but you copy and paste it. Should be a law to prevent it.
 
Well, want Brexit, or not... it does appear to be falling apart at the seems doesn't it.

"CARDIFF – The National Assembly for Wales has today passed a motion calling for “full and unfettered access to the European Single Market, through membership of the EEA and/or EFTA”.

and as we know soft Brexit isn't really possible. So what next?

http://walesforeurope.org/news/wales-backs-the-single-market/
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Well, want Brexit, or not... it does appear to be falling apart at the seems doesn't it.

"CARDIFF – The National Assembly for Wales has today passed a motion calling for “full and unfettered access to the European Single Market, through membership of the EEA and/or EFTA”.

and as we know soft Brexit isn't really possible. So what next?

http://walesforeurope.org/news/wales-backs-the-single-market/
A snap election? Surely we can't just proceed with the nonsensical shambles we are witnessing daily without a proper parliamentary mandate?

Tom
 
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tillson

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May 29, 2008
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I thought this thread was about facts... so it will go on as long as there is a need for facts about Brexit.

There have been two chances for the public to vote so far in 2017. Both were last night. They both show a crazy swing.



So that's Lib Dems gaining from Labour in a massive leave area of Sunderland with a 41.5% swing!! and them also taking a set from Conservatives with another 20+% swing, which nows gives them that council as a whole.

I wonder what could be causing this swing? Is it that the people who vote in normal elections, like these, and general elections aren't quite the same as the people who came out for the one hit protest vote in June? We know lots of them voted for the first time. Is it that people aren't happy with the fact that they voted for something, they clearly aren't going to get?

Either way, the pro EU parties and candidates are doing very well.
Meaningless.
 
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oldgroaner

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Hasn't everyone wasted enough of their time bickering about this by now? I know that if I were as old (and supposedly wise) as some of you guys, I'd not waste another moment of my life trying to convince somebody else that my views on the matter are more valid than theirs.

Just maybe its finally time for this thread to die now. Maybe...?
No sounds good to me.
 
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oldgroaner

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A snap election? Surely we can't just proceed with the nonsensical shambles we are witnessing daily without a proper parliamentary mandate?

Tom
If they want me to vote in an election I would dearly like to see an option on the Form "None of the Above" but will have no alternative than to bite my tongue and vote for one of the parties opposing Brexit.

(When I finally figure out which one does) in the full knowledge that this is a complete waste of time.

Rather like selling Aspirin on the Street during an outbreak of Hysteria while the Black Death is ranging all around.

In the historic words of John of Gaunt.

"England that was wont to conquer others
Hath made a conquest of itself"

Still there will be a heart felt feeling of relief across the channel to be shut of us when we go and all our lies, threats and complaints.

They will be free to take us for all they can get, and there's not a thing we can do about it.

Will America come to the rescue? there's a jest, they bled us white in two world wars and it took sixty years for us to pay off the debt.
China? considering they have built their economy on our foolish investors putting money into there to exploit cheap labour, all they are likely to do is buy us outright in a revenge for the opium Wars.
Let's face it this Brexit thing is really Comedy Noir on an epic Scale.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Some more facts from the educated.

This is the result of an impact assessment study by Queens University Belfast.

http://www.qub.ac.uk/home/EUReferendum/Brexitfilestore/Filetoupload,736178,en.pdf
You are being really unfair, you know! Do you imagine for a moment that the average 'Brexidiot' is likely to read, let alone believe, anything from well-educated university students?

Moreover, you make the assumption that 'Brexidiots' can all read when I suspect that is not necessarily the case.:) Even those who can read and may be credited with a degree of intelligence still seem unable to see the wisdom in retaining full EU membership and perhaps influencing change from within.

Tom
 
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oldgroaner

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You are being really unfair, you know! Do you imagine for a moment that the average 'Brexidiot' is likely to read, let alone believe, anything from well-educated university students?

Moreover, you make the assumption that 'Brexidiots' can all read when I suspect that is not necessarily the case.:) Even those who can read and may be credited with a degree of intelligence still seem unable to see the wisdom in retaining full EU membership and perhaps influencing change from within.

Tom
I believe a new term is required for this condition and offer
"Cognitive incontinence" (unless someone has a better suggestion)
 
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we have to try.

Brian Cox shared this earlier today.

'Against stupidity we are defensless'. But we have to try. It begins with politicians not pandering to the stupid, who are still a minority

With a link to this.... pretty wise if you ask me.



followed up with this... which I totally agree with:

as a rule I won't assume someone is stupid just because they've been misinformed or misled - but if their reaction follows this pattern ...


https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/819469017706627072
 
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Danidl

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Sep 29, 2016
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You are being really unfair, you know! Do you imagine for a moment that the average 'Brexidiot' is likely to read, let alone believe, anything from well-educated university students?

Moreover, you make the assumption that 'Brexidiots' can all read when I suspect that is not necessarily the case.:) Even those who can read and may be credited with a degree of intelligence still seem unable to see the wisdom in retaining full EU membership and perhaps influencing change from within.

Tom
The QUB report you refer to is almost certainly not a student project, it has all the hallmarks of a central administration report to their governing body and funding authority. It is indicative of the concern being experienced on this island about this proposed brexit.
 

Danidl

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Sep 29, 2016
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If they want me to vote in an election I would dearly like to see an option on the Form "None of the Above" but will have no alternative than to bite my tongue and vote for one of the parties opposing Brexit.

(When I finally figure out which one does) in the full knowledge that this is a complete waste of time.

Rather like selling Aspirin on the Street during an outbreak of Hysteria while the Black Death is ranging all around.

In the historic words of John of Gaunt.

"England that was wont to conquer others
Hath made a conquest of itself"

Still there will be a heart felt feeling of relief across the channel to be shut of us when we go and all our lies, threats and complaints.

They will be free to take us for all they can get, and there's not a thing we can do about it.

Will America come to the rescue? there's a jest, they bled us white in two world wars and it took sixty years for us to pay off the debt.
China? considering they have built their economy on our foolish investors putting money into there to exploit cheap labour, all they are likely to do is buy us outright in a revenge for the opium Wars.
Let's face it this Brexit thing is really Comedy Noir on an epic Scale.


I was wondering how long it would take before the opium war connection would be made.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
You are being really unfair, you know! Do you imagine for a moment that the average 'Brexidiot' is likely to read, let alone believe, anything from well-educated university students?

Moreover, you make the assumption that 'Brexidiots' can all read when I suspect that is not necessarily the case.:) Even those who can read and may be credited with a degree of intelligence still seem unable to see the wisdom in retaining full EU membership and perhaps influencing change from within.

Tom
A good example of being arse-holier than thou! :) Well done you!

I have spent over 10 years at university as a student, a research student and towards the end of my time there, lecturing. Now that you are armed with this knowledge, I am confident that you will agree that just because material has been produced by university students or academic staff, it is no guarantee that it will be accepted by everyone as reliable fact.
 

Danidl

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Sep 29, 2016
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Hasn't everyone wasted enough of their time bickering about this by now? I know that if I were as old (and supposedly wise) as some of you guys, I'd not waste another moment of my life trying to convince somebody else that my views on the matter are more valid than theirs.

Just maybe its finally time for this thread to die now. Maybe...?
What you are ignoring is that this is actually a very live issue. Nothing and I mean nothing has been resolved. The legal situation is that UK is still a full and participating member of the EU. Your electorate gave a narrow advisory vote that they might prefer to be outside the EU in some ill-defined circumstances. Your parliament has not made any decision yet. There is not even a proposal or white paper. Even the persons who will have the power to trigger the decision has not been decided .. it is sub judice
All there is at present is vague assertions and contradictory aspirations..... And insults....
So it remains a live issue.
There seems to be a school of fatalism that this is a fate accompli and just get on with it... But get on with what.
There is everything to play for at present.
My preference is unequivocally that the UK is better placed both economically, socially, militarily by remaining within a strong block of 28 nations than seeking to go alone. I have asked on three occasions why others might think otherwise to a defening silence.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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You are being really unfair, you know! Do you imagine for a moment that the average 'Brexidiot' is likely to read, let alone believe, anything from well-educated university students?

Moreover, you make the assumption that 'Brexidiots' can all read when I suspect that is not necessarily the case.:) Even those who can read and may be credited with a degree of intelligence still seem unable to see the wisdom in retaining full EU membership and perhaps influencing change from within.

Tom
You really must be running out of feet to shoot holes in ...if you bothered to actually read the whole report , it neither supports or criticises leaving or staying. It gives requirements post brexit and poses questions about regaining funding and EU student quotas. ( eu were funding to tune of around 20% but its dropped over last 5 years, as have eu students)
Its an excellent unbiased report, worth reading Tom. I suggest you try , it is rather long for short sighted fools.

The report does not assume no provisions will be made to keep the universities standards, only idiots wanting to try and justify their opinions are doing so.
 
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Woosh

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There seems to be a school of fatalism that this is a fate accompli and just get on with it... But get on with what.
Even if another referendum reverses the last, I doubt that the margin will be big enough to be convincing.
The only way is to remove the tories from power for a generation.
 
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