Brexit, for once some facts.

[anotherkiwi]

Que?
What are you talking about? Slavery was abolished 182 years ago. Catch up man, for goodness sake.

Well spotted tilson! No more slavery means people in work today are quite often below the poverty line or have to have two full time jobs to make ends meet. This is called "progress".

 

[Zlatan]

To some extent I agree with you in that he does weaponise his ability to communicate and to debate. He has also benefitted from an education at Eton College and Oxford University which, no doubt, has enhanced his skills.

But what is less advantaged? I know people from less privileged backgrounds who could match him in terms of communication and constructing an argument. They are able to do so because they have worked harder that Jacob Rees Mogg to improve themselves. Because Rees Mogg has benefitted from a head-start is no reason to criticise him or say that he is wrong to use his skills as a weapon.

I think sometimes the term, "disadvantage" is a by-word to describe a lazy & slovenly person intent on taking the maximum amount possible in return for as little effort as can be got away with.

I believe that it is the people who fall into this "disadvantaged" category who Rees Mogg wished to tackle, not genuine people disadvantaged by a disability or some other factor beyond their control. Likewise, I suppose that it is the "Disadvantaged" who stand to gain the least from BREXIT.

You know full well Tilson this just isn't the place for such rampant objectivity.
He,s a Tory so he's scum.
Life is so much easier if you keep it simple. If you voted leave you are xenophobic if you want UK to control its own boarders you are racist..Come on Tilson keep up.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I don't have a problem with any MP based on their party really, because they are all pretty broad churches and I can pick policies from most I'd agree with.

I have a problem with the whole party political system really. But that's a side issue.

However whichever party Rees Mogg was in, I'd still find him an example of all that is bad in the UK.

From today...

'“Would anyone in this house sign up to an agreement without knowing the details?” Starmer asked. “If so, please put your hand in the air.”

Jacob Rees-Mogg put his hand up. There’s always one.'

 

[Zlatan]

Oh and Tilson , word of advice. Don't use any of the generalisations normally associated with the Germans, French, or Newzealanders. ( you know the kind of thing, the War, cheese, surrendering and sheep) It will cause bouts of explosive righteousness...just be careful, some generalisations are fine...others taboo..Tom has the idea, just consult him if you are unsure.

Nigel

 

[oldgroaner]

It was actually derf who introduced slavery into the discussion. I merely pointed out that it was actually abolished over 180 years ago.

You then indicated that it is likely to return due to the EU referendum.

Regardless, I mentioned it only for the purpose of illustrating our differing views on what does and does not constitute reality.

With regards to BREXIT, we each have a differing view on what the "reality" of BREXIT will mean. In the last few posts, you have given a glimpse of where your reality datum is positioned.

Even more tellingly that yours fails utterly to see the obvious and that exploitation of lower orders after lowering their living standards to those of the Far East was the sole intention behind the launching and promotion of this squalid reverse of the progress of this nation.

I see what is so obviously there, whereas you see exactly what you want to, You left Reality behind long ago and live in the land of sunny dreams.

My Datum? here, now, on solid ground, having reasoned on the probable outcome of this "bet" which is all Brexit is, and found it wanting in all respects.
My decision is based on reason and logic, not propaganda, and out of caution not Greed
Brexit is a weapon of the Elite promoted to fool the gullible into becoming nothing more than serfs, and they are alas unable to see it.

We are making the biggest mistake this country has ever made on the basis that one third of the population have fallen for a pack of lies and what will prove a Toxic Dream.

The old saying "Gamblers rarely win in the long term" will prove true here.
100% of the population will suffer the consequences of the foolish decision of the 38%
And nothing more than fear of mob violence keeps this on going disaster in motion.

 

[oldgroaner]

Oh and Tilson , word of advice. Don't use any of the generalisations normally associated with the Germans, French, or Newzealanders. ( you know the kind of thing, the War, cheese, surrendering and sheep) It will cause bouts of explosive righteousness...just be careful, some generalisations are fine...others taboo..Tom has the idea, just consult him if you are unsure.

Nigel

Quite right, you are after all the only one who understands all about "Explosive righteousness" aren't you?
Mind you we still don't really have a clue as to where all that hot air is taking you, how about saying something on topic?

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't have a problem with any MP based on their party really, because they are all pretty broad churches and I can pick policies from most I'd agree with.

I have a problem with the whole party political system really. But that's a side issue.

However whichever party Rees Mogg was in, I'd still find him an example of all that is bad in the UK.

From today...

'“Would anyone in this house sign up to an agreement without knowing the details?” Starmer asked. “If so, please put your hand in the air.”

Jacob Rees-Mogg put his hand up. There’s always one.'

Be fair he had just come out of hibernation and needed to use the toilet!

 

[oldgroaner]

You know full well Tilson this just isn't the place for such rampant objectivity.
He,s a Tory so he's scum.
Life is so much easier if you keep it simple. If you voted leave you are xenophobic if you want UK to control its own boarders you are racist..Come on Tilson keep up.

You mentioned "Control your own borders", now there is an example of Brexit fantasy.
We are on the one hand losing our biggest market and have a wish to invest in Border Forces and a Navy cut to the bone by the very government that will be running the country after we leave the EU.
Are we going to as for an EU regional development fund loan to do that?
We have no means to pay for such luxuries do we?

 

[Zlatan]

Quite right, you are after all the only one who understands all about "Explosive righteousness" aren't you?
Mind you we still don't really have a clue as to where all that hot air is taking you, how about saying something on topic?

Now now OG play nice...I haven't insulted anyone...was all tongue un cheek..neverthe less a valid point which others plainly support...
By the way your last soliloquy was beautiful...but actually said nowt..

 

[tillson]

Even more tellingly that yours fails utterly to see the obvious and that exploitation of lower orders after lowering their living standards to those of the Far East was the sole intention behind the launching and promotion of this squalid reverse of the progress of this nation.

I see what is so obviously there, whereas you see exactly what you want to, You left Reality behind long ago and live in the land of sunny dreams.

My Datum? here, now, on solid ground, having reasoned on the probable outcome of this "bet" which is all Brexit is, and found it wanting in all respects.
My decision is based on reason and logic, not propaganda, and out of caution not Greed
Brexit is a weapon of the Elite promoted to fool the gullible into becoming nothing more than serfs, and they are alas unable to see it.

We are making the biggest mistake this country has ever made on the basis that one third of the population have fallen for a pack of lies and what will prove a Toxic Dream.

The old saying "Gamblers rarely win in the long term" will prove true here.
100% of the population will suffer the consequences of the foolish decision of the 38%
And nothing more than fear of mob violence keeps this on going disaster in motion.

Again OG, this is all from the perspective of where your datum on the truth, reality and politics lie. What you choose to believe from the media also plays a part. I am not saying that you are wrong, just that this is your view and that certainly does not make it fact. Just the same as my views or any one else's views and opinions are not fact.

 

[oldgroaner]

Now now OG play nice...I haven't insulted anyone...was all tongue un cheek..neverthe less a valid point which others plainly support...
By the way your last soliloquy was beautiful...but actually said nowt..

It wasn't a soliloquy, as you aren't the only person present old chap.and besides lighting tillson's fuse like that causes "premature Expostulation", creates lots of soot and smoke that take ages to clear,and on occasion he has been known to sulk and disappear for days, and my God I hate it when he does that.
So think of the rest of us when you light his blue touch paper, there's a good fella.

 

[derf]

Again OG, this is all from the perspective of where your datum on the truth, reality and politics lie. What you choose to believe from the media also plays a part. I am not saying that you are wrong, just that this is your view and that certainly does not make it fact. Just the same as my views or any one else's views and opinions are not fact.

brexitters deliberate ignoring of facts runs through this thread, and much of the debate out there in the politics of it. most recently with the blank dismissal of financial authorities like the independent OBR's predictions. It's at the very least half fascinating. Is it denial fuelled by fundamentalism? or simply confabulation, the way the uninformed "fills in the gaps" in their broken consciousness as part of finding not knowing unbearable? or is it psychopathic - a deliberate ploy to keep the uninformed in the dark while pushing a racist agenda? if I didn't find myself sharing a half destroyed leaky wooden boat being rowed at breakneck speed into an iceberg I'd feel a bit more detached about it.

 

[oldgroaner]

Again OG, this is all from the perspective of where your datum on the truth, reality and politics lie. What you choose to believe from the media also plays a part. I am not saying that you are wrong, just that this is your view and that certainly does not make it fact. Just the same as my views or any one else's views and opinions are not fact.

Are you trying to confuse me by trying to appear rational, sensible and reasonable?
Shame on you! does our relationship mean so little to you?

 

[oldgroaner]

brexitters deliberate ignoring of facts runs through this thread, and much of the debate out there in the politics of it. most recently with the blank dismissal of financial authorities like the independent OBR's predictions. It's at the very least half fascinating. Is it denial fuelled by fundamentalism? or simply confabulation, the way the uninformed "fills in the gaps" in their broken consciousness as part of finding not knowing unbearable? or is it psychopathic - a deliberate ploy to keep the uninformed in the dark while pushing a racist agenda? if I didn't find myself sharing a half destroyed leaky wooden boat being rowed at breakneck speed into an iceberg I'd feel a bit more detached about it.

It's actually worse than that, derf, the iceberg, should we manage to leave the sinking boat in time is in the Mid Atlantic, suffering from Global Warming and about to do a "Roll Over!"

 

[oldtom]

Mind you we still don't really have a clue as to where all that hot air is taking you, how about saying something on topic?

Don't be daft OG; our man from France or the North Pole....unless he has performed another moonlight flit.....is the definitive example of one who launches headlong into a fatal battle of wits while only half-prepared. For some people, it really is best to say nothing and be thought a fool.........

Tom

 

[tillson]

brexitters deliberate ignoring of facts runs through this thread, and much of the debate out there in the politics of it. most recently with the blank dismissal of financial authorities like the independent OBR's predictions. It's at the very least half fascinating. Is it denial fuelled by fundamentalism? or simply confabulation, the way the uninformed "fills in the gaps" in their broken consciousness as part of finding not knowing unbearable? or is it psychopathic - a deliberate ploy to keep the uninformed in the dark while pushing a racist agenda? if I didn't find myself sharing a half destroyed leaky wooden boat being rowed at breakneck speed into an iceberg I'd feel a bit more detached about it.

The problem that you have quoting these "independent expert bodies" is that they have a tendency to be spectacularly wrong with their predictions. These organisations were forecasting immediate Armageddon requiring an emergency budget following a BREXIT vote. The reality is that the reverse of what they predicted has happened and that is a fact. Other respected bodies forecast that BREXIT will benefit the country.

Because you, OG and the other remainers have a predisposition to favour anti-BREXIT news you actually believe the forecasts which predict disadvantages associated with BREXIT.

Likewise, my bias is towards a more optimistic post BREXIT outlook. But I may be wrong and that is why we have a referendum, to see what the majority of people want to do.

I don't think the "stick with what you know" approach is particularly attractive one. I don't like the idea of being imprisoned by a fear of trying something new and different. I favour exploring options which have potential to benefit us. My personal view is that the EU is in its death throws and we are better off out of it, but retaining a friendly and helpful relationship with our European neighbours.

 

[mike killay]

Brussels won't want the UK hanging around while we argue internally over what we want particularly as many in the EU do not actually like our existing pre Referendum terms of membership of the Union with all its opt outs etc. The fact is that the UK commitment to European Political and Monetary Union was only half hearted even before the referendum result was known. I doubt that Brussels is going to let us simply maintain the status quo after causing all this turmoil. While many Remainers berate Brexiters for their lack of strategy for the future most wont acknowledge that most of them don't really have a clear vision of what Britain's position in the EU should be either or how they envisage that the wider crisis that is gripping Europe should be resolved. Are there any clear proposals about addressing the wider problems of monetary union, migration, unemployment, and the general democratic deficit that exists in an EU structure that is essentially run by bureaucrats and a Council of Ministers who get their decisions rubber stamped by the European Parliament.

 

[oldtom]

Thanks to 'The Canary', I have managed to catch sight of the official tory 'Brexit' plan so I take back everything I have ever said about there being no strategic plan in place. At risk of prosecution under the Official Secrets Act, I am nonetheless happy to share this important document with the forum:



Tom

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The problem that you have quoting these "independent expert bodies" is that they have a tendency to be spectacularly wrong with their predictions. These organisations were forecasting immediate Armageddon requiring an emergency budget following a BREXIT vote. The reality is that the reverse of what they predicted has happened and that is a fact.

Ok... show me one prediction that was based on the impact of the vote alone. You know full well that everything prior to the referendum assumed if "leave" won, the button would be pushed within days. Predictions are based on leaving the EU, or triggering A50. They were not ever based on just the impact of the vote.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Here's another reminder that the public opinion "will of the people" is never set in stone, it changes with time, for a whole host of reasons.

http://www.shortlist.com/news/120-000-leave-voters-died-since-brexit