Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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From the Independent
"
Donald Trump has said he will deport two to three million undocumented immigrants “immediately” upon taking office.

In his first television interview since winning the presidential election, Mr Trump insisted that he is going to carry out his hardline immigration policy proposals, while insisting that he would build a wall between the US and Mexico.

“What we are going to do is get the people that are criminal and have criminal records, gang members, drug dealers, where a lot of these people, probably two million – it could be even three million – we are getting them out of the country or we are going to incarcerate,” Mr Trump told 60 Minutes."

Just a simple question, how are two to three million people who have criminal records undocumented?
Or is this just a case of vilifying any ethic group that takes his fancy, and having a Pogrom?

And how long before the Daily Mail and Express call for the same thing here?
 
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trex

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the vote for Trump has at least concenntrated the mind. If you don't like the Trump presidency then maybe you'll start doubting brexit.
The Telegraph, the mouthpiece for 'reasonable brexiters', has this today:
A £10.4 billion surplus in 2019/20, predicted by George Osborne in his last Budget as Chancellor in March, is now on course to be a £14.9 billion deficit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/14/scotland-facing-up-to-13-billion-extra-cuts-thanks-to-brexit-gro/

we should all think about this calmly. Hard brexit with or without transitional period is pretty much economic self harm.
 
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oldgroaner

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the vote for Trump has at least concenntrated the mind. If you don't like the Trump presidency then maybe you'll start doubting brexit.
The Telegraph, the mouthpiece for 'reasonable brexiters', has this today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/14/scotland-facing-up-to-13-billion-extra-cuts-thanks-to-brexit-gro/

we should all think about this calmly. Hard brexit with or without transitional period is pretty much economic self harm.
Nah Guv Britain is Boomin, innit? just Remoaner nonsense 's all.:(
 
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oldtom

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A friend has passed me a copy of the letter Boris Johnson will deliver on behalf of the incumbent UK government to the US President-elect on assuming office.


'To the citizens of the United States of America, in light of your failure to elect a competent President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II resumes monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy.

Your new prime minister (The Right Honourable Theresa May, MP for the 97.8% of you who have, until now, been unaware there's a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America. Congress and the Senate are disbanded. A questionnaire circulated next year will determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid your transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. Look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Check "aluminium" in the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you pronounce it. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and 'neighbour'. Likewise you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary." Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed." There will be no more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer show. If you're not old enough to cope with bad language then you should not have chat shows.

2. There is no such thing as "US English." We'll let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u'.

3. You should learn to distinguish English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to cockney, upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). Scottish dramas such as 'Taggart' will no longer be broadcast with subtitles.You must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon." If you persist in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g. Texasshire Floridashire, Louisianashire.

4. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1.

5. You should stop playing American "football." There's only one kind of football. What you call American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.1% of you aware there is a world outside your borders may have noticed no one else plays "American" football. You should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every two seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies) You should stop playing baseball. It's not reasonable to host event called the 'World Series' for a game which is not played outside of America. Instead of baseball, you will be allowed to play a girls' game called "rounders," which is baseball without fancy team stripe, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs.

6. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns, or anything more dangerous in public than a vegetable peeler. Because you are not sensible enough to handle potentially dangerous items, you need a permit to carry a vegetable peeler.

7. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday. It will be called "Indecisive Day."

8. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left. At the same time, you will go metric without the benefit of conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

9. Learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips. Fries aren't French, they're Belgian though 97.8% of you (including the guy who discovered fries while in Europe) are not aware of a country called Belgium. Potato chips are properly called "crisps." Real chips are thick cut and fried in animal fat. The traditional accompaniment to chips is beer which should be served warm and flat.

10. The cold tasteless stuff you call beer is actually lager. Only proper British Bitter will be referred to as "beer." Substances once known as "American Beer" will henceforth be referred to as "Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine," except for the product of the American Budweiser company which will be called "Weak Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine." This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in Pilsen, Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.

11. The UK will harmonise petrol prices (or "Gasoline," as you will be permitted to keep calling it) for those of the former USA, adopting UK petrol prices (roughly $6/US gallon, get used to it).

12. Learn to resolve personal issues without guns, lawyers or therapists. That you need many lawyers and therapists shows you're not adult enough to be independent. If you're not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, you're not grown up enough to handle a gun.

13. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.

14. Tax collectors from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776).

Thank you for your co-operation.'

Tom
 
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tillson

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From the Independent
"
Donald Trump has said he will deport two to three million undocumented immigrants “immediately” upon taking office.

In his first television interview since winning the presidential election, Mr Trump insisted that he is going to carry out his hardline immigration policy proposals, while insisting that he would build a wall between the US and Mexico.

“What we are going to do is get the people that are criminal and have criminal records, gang members, drug dealers, where a lot of these people, probably two million – it could be even three million – we are getting them out of the country or we are going to incarcerate,” Mr Trump told 60 Minutes."

Just a simple question, how are two to three million people who have criminal records undocumented?


And how long before the Daily Mail and Express call for the same thing here?
In answer to your question regarding how three million people with criminal records can be undocumented;

I believe that Donald Trump said that his intention is to deport three million illegal immigrants who have criminal records. It is possible for these two situations, being an illegal immigrant and having a criminal record, to co-exist. Certainly in this country if someone is convicted of a criminal offence and during the course of the investigation it becomes apparent that they are in the country illegally, then this does not automatically lead to deportation.

I believe the situation is the same in the US, so it is likely that there will be people who hold a criminal record, but no record linked to citizenship. It will be these people to whom Mr Trump is referring.

In answer to your second question, I have no idea if or when the Daily Express will be calling for a similar situation here. Any attempt by me to answer this would be pure speculation.
 

derf

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From the Independent
"
Donald Trump has said he will deport two to three million undocumented immigrants “immediately” upon taking office.

In his first television interview since winning the presidential election, Mr Trump insisted that he is going to carry out his hardline immigration policy proposals, while insisting that he would build a wall between the US and Mexico.

“What we are going to do is get the people that are criminal and have criminal records, gang members, drug dealers, where a lot of these people, probably two million – it could be even three million – we are getting them out of the country or we are going to incarcerate,” Mr Trump told 60 Minutes."

Just a simple question, how are two to three million people who have criminal records undocumented?
Or is this just a case of vilifying any ethic group that takes his fancy, and having a Pogrom?

And how long before the Daily Mail and Express call for the same thing here?
I dream of a parallel world in which there is a daily mail that calls for Cyprus and spain to deport all the british criminals back to uk. now that would be a pogrom that would put anything recent from turkey/Syria to complete shame.
 
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In answer to your question regarding how three million people with criminal records can be undocumented;

I believe that Donald Trump said that his intention is to deport three million illegal immigrants who have criminal records. It is possible for these two situations, being an illegal immigrant and having a criminal record, to co-exist. Certainly in this country if someone is convicted of a criminal offence and during the course of the investigation it becomes apparent that they are in the country illegally, then this does not automatically lead to deportation.
So do you seriously think that there are 3 million people in the US who are both illegal immigrants and have criminal records?

Or do you think its more likely its a made up number and Trump has suggested something that is impossible, i.e. deporting a list of people that doesn't exist because by definition they are illegal.
 
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tillson

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From the Telegraph
"
Theresa May facing Cabinet backlash over refusal to deal with Nigel Farage despite his links to Donald Trump
My goodness! I find myself siding with the woman for once!
But it looks as if there are splits appearing in the Government ranks.
Unless of course this is just a Murdoch inspired fantasy.
I think Mrs May would be wise to swallow her pride, deflate her ego a little and form a working relationship with Nigel Farage. Number 10 have made some unpleasant remarks about Donald Trump during the run up to the election. I imagine that yet again they underestimated public opinion and disregarded the possibility of a Trump victory, leaving them with more egg on their faces and having to work with a man they had previously insulted. I do believe that in her capacity as Home Secretary, Mrs May had hinted at banning Donald Trump from visiting the UK.

There is no denying that Donald Trump and Nigel Farage have a friendship and a good foundation for a working relationship, whereas Mrs May has put herself on the back foot. She needs Farage to help her and the sooner that she realises this the better. Then we can start building a stronger and more constructive UK / US relationship.
 

trex

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"Trump vows to deport 3 millions Mexicans."

I don't think it's going to happen. American economy needs more immigrants, not less.
 

tillson

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So do you seriously think that there are 3 million people in the US who are both illegal immigrants and have criminal records?

Or do you think its more likely its a made up number and Trump has suggested something that is impossible, i.e. deporting a list of people that doesn't exist because by definition they are illegal.
I have no access to US records, so can't answer that question.

My personal opinion is as follows;

I don't think that the sentiment of Trump's statement is that if a person is in the country illegally, then that automatically makes them a criminal and an illegal immigrant. I believe that under Trump's line of thinking, that person would be an illegal immigrant with no criminal record.

If that same person, the illegal immigrant, then went on to commit a crime and was given a criminal record (This can happen. A convicted illegal immigrant is not automatically deported), then they would fall into Trump's category of being both an illegal immigrant and also having a criminal record. I understand his message to be that it is these people who he intends to deport.

From what I read, his estimate is that they number 2 to 3 million. It sounds high to me, but I would not be overly surprised if it were true.
 

trex

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I think his estimate is ball park figure.
There are about 11 million 'undocumented Mexicans' in the USA.
Obama has deported 2.5 millions in 8 years.
 

trex

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these figures come from news agencies such as ABC.
The 11 million figure is believable though.
The problem is that the South border of the US is 2,000 mile long. If the wall is anything like the one in Jerusalem, it is going to be bigger than the Great Wall of China and can be seen clearly from space.
Is this what our cilivisation has come to?
 
Yes, so all you're saying is "someone else made them up"

The wall is clearly nonsense. Did you see the Ross Kemp program on Sky One in September about the border.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ross-kemp/ross-kemp-mexico-border_b_12010686.html

Its worth a watch if you can find it on catch up.

If the US put the money into that border into solving the problems people are running away from / escaping they could solve the problems.

Putting a wall up won't solve the problems in Haiti etc etc. They will always find a way round it, over it, under it etc etc... because the dream of a new life is worth dying for in their eyes.
 
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trex

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the solution that the mainstream politics come up with is NAFTA which enriches industrialists and make millions of victims in the US rust belt. NAFTA has also put Mexico into a position that it can't afford to upset president Trump. What are you proposing instead of the wall? Mainstream politics has run out of solutions at the moment.
Brexiters should look at the Trump presidency as a warning. 73 FTAs to replace the Single Market with are going to come with a lot of similar problems like NAFTA has engendered.
 
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derf

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I think Mrs May would be wise to swallow her pride, deflate her ego a little and form a working relationship with Nigel Farage. Number 10 have made some unpleasant remarks about Donald Trump during the run up to the election. I imagine that yet again they underestimated public opinion and disregarded the possibility of a Trump victory, leaving them with more egg on their faces and having to work with a man they had previously insulted. I do believe that in her capacity as Home Secretary, Mrs May had hinted at banning Donald Trump from visiting the UK.

There is no denying that Donald Trump and Nigel Farage have a friendship and a good foundation for a working relationship, whereas Mrs May has put herself on the back foot. She needs Farage to help her and the sooner that she realises this the better. Then we can start building a stronger and more constructive UK / US relationship.
absolutely, I think not offending trump (or for that matter his chum Vladimir) should be the absolute corner stones of the UK's future foreign policy. And yes we should let unelected leaders of minority parties control foreign policy fro now on too.
 

tillson

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And yes we should let unelected leaders of minority parties control foreign policy fro now on too.
Nigel Farage is an elected politician. He has been elected as a politician to the EU Parliament. He has shown friendship and support to one of the UK's allies, the US and their new president.

Farage is also the leader of the third largest party in UK politics.
 
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Farage is also the leader of the third largest party in UK politics.
Latest Party membership figures
According to the latest available estimates from political parties’ head offices, press releases and media estimates:

  • The Labour Party has around 515,000 members, as of July 2016.
  • The Conservative Party had 149,800 members as of December 2013, the latest available estimate published by CCHQ.
  • The Scottish National Party has around 120,000 members, as of July 2016.
  • The Liberal Democrat Party has 76,000 members, as of July 2016.
  • The Green Party (England and Wales) has 55,500 members, as of July 2016.
  • UKIP has around 39,000 members, as of July 2016.
  • The Plaid Cymru has 8,273 members, as of July 2016.
I think that makes them 6th doesn't it?
 
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