Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Looking back at it now, it may have started years ago in Poland with Solidarity.
Little people realising that the ruling elites are past their sell by dates.
Then came other Eastern European states, the Arab Spring, Brexit and now Trump.
The World is slowly changing.
I have met people who question why this perpetual need for 'Growth'
Only the Elites and MegaCorps really benefit.
Little people lose their jobs.
Quality of life is becoming more important to people rather than wealth.

While I agree about the rest of your post, I'd leave the Arab Spring out of the list. That was just a fabrication by the West based on no real evidence, to try to get democracy into the Middle East by the back door.

And just like everywhere else that we poke our noses into, it's ended in total chaos.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Looking back at it now, it may have started years ago in Poland with Solidarity.
Little people realising that the ruling elites are past their sell by dates.
Then came other Eastern European states, the Arab Spring, Brexit and now Trump.
The World is slowly changing.
I have met people who question why this perpetual need for 'Growth'
Only the Elites and MegaCorps really benefit.
Little people lose their jobs.
Quality of life is becoming more important to people rather than wealth.

But falling back into living in isolated little nations is not the future, is it?
It is simply this same elite exerting power to keep the local populations from achieving larger, safer, and more efficient social groups.
The logic of brexit leads downhill till we are little more than petty kingdoms ruled by despots ,who can play the public to do anything they want using lies, fear campaigns and promises they have no intention of honouring.
Do you really believe a blow has been struck against the ruling elite?
Sorry but that is ludicrous, this has been done by and for their benefit
Brexit is the very opposite of a bill of rights for the people, more a licence to kill for the rich.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[trex]

Little people lose their jobs.

This time, the little people went out to vote more than ever before for brexit and Donald Trump.
but the world is still run by the well educated elites and capitalist billionaires. brexit and Donald Trump won't be able to deliver on their promises.
You can see that in the current brexit roll out.
would they go out and vote again for the same?

 

[mike killay]

But falling back into living in isolated little nations is not the future, is it?
It is simply this same elite exerting power to keep the local populations from achieving larger, safer, and more efficient social groups.
The logic of brexit leads downhill till we are little more than petty kingdoms ruled by despots ,who can play the public to do anything they want using lies, fear campaigns and promises they have no intention of honouring.
Do you really believe a blow has been struck against the ruling elite?
Sorry but that is ludicrous, this has been done by and for their benefit
Brexit is the very opposite of a bill of rights for the people, more a licence to kill for the rich.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

Well OG, that's your theory, we can only wait and see. But as to petty Kingdoms, do people have the right of self determination or not?
Do the Scots have a right to independence like the Irish, The Americans etc.

 

[derf]

Looking back at it now, it may have started years ago in Poland with Solidarity.
Little people realising that the ruling elites are past their sell by dates.
Then came other Eastern European states, the Arab Spring, Brexit and now Trump.
The World is slowly changing.
I have met people who question why this perpetual need for 'Growth'
Only the Elites and MegaCorps really benefit.
Little people lose their jobs.
Quality of life is becoming more important to people rather than wealth.

in principle I have problems with capitalism and economic growth too, in practice I disagree with you - it (capitalism, globalisation) has raised the living standards of ordinary people, in the third world as well, stratospherically on average over the past 100 years (as reflected the rapid rise in life expectancy). trump and brexit have much more to do with the 2008 crash than any worldwide trends, economic crises are usual followed by populism, fascism. the question is whether it will go as far as in the 1930's

 

[oldgroaner]

Well OG, that's your theory, we can only wait and see. But as to petty Kingdoms, do people have the right of self determination or not?
Do the Scots have a right to independence like the Irish, The Americans etc.

No theory,historical fact and inevitable.
Human societies that don't coalesce into larger ones simply stagnate and die.
Do people have the right to "Self determination" is your question
And the answer is of course NO, as we cannot as individuals decide we are independent of society around us and expect to survive.
Self Determination is an oxymoron as you have to give it up to belong to a group or nation.
What you have conflated that with is "Identifiable Group or Political Entity " Determination, a very different thing, to which the answer is, logic suggests that quite obviously economy of scale favours the larger group over the smaller one, and better exploits resources for the good of society.
There is simply no case for example where the Saxon Kingdoms would ever have become as succesful and advanced societies as the nation we are today.

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[trex]

...
the question is whether it will go as far as in the 1930's

I don't think it's likely, at least not in GB. We should wait and see if this parliament and the next support hard brexit. My guess they will not.
there are a lot of angry voters and xenophobic MPs but there are more reasonable voters and more intelligent MPs.

 

[trex]

the ONS confirms that in September, UK trade deficit widens despite the cheaper pound. Imports rose while exports dropped, not the way Mrs May would have liked.
If it carries on, the drip drip bad economic news will soon make hard brexit a non runner.
There are about 3 million brexit voters who did not vote before the last referendum, they are the most likely to move over to either soft brexit or remain.

 

[Lister]

Totally agree, insulting,tasteless and uninformative.
Could apply to the poster though!

 

[mike killay]

No theory,historical fact and inevitable.
Human societies that don't coalesce into larger ones simply stagnate and die.
Do people have the right to "Self determination" is your question
And the answer is of course NO, as we cannot as individuals decide we are independent of society around us and expect to survive.
Self Determination is an oxymoron as you have to give it up to belong to a group or nation.
What you have conflated that with is "Identifiable Group or Political Entity " Determination, a very different thing, to which the answer is, logic suggests that quite obviously economy of scale favours the larger group over the smaller one, and better exploits resources for the good of society.
There is simply no case for example where the Saxon Kingdoms would ever have become as succesful and advanced societies as the nation we are today.

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I have to wonder what Nichola Sturgeon would make of that.
Each to their own (ideas) eh?

 

[oldgroaner]

I have to wonder what Nichola Sturgeon would make of that.
Each to their own (ideas) eh?

I can hazard that she would not subscribe to that idea, but being of Scottish Descent , and collectively we voted against independence last time say good luck with that!

 

[trex]

I have to wonder what Nichola Sturgeon would make of that.
Each to their own (ideas) eh?

Sturgeon prefers a looser grouping with the larger EU to the UK.

 

[oldgroaner]

It seems things are the same as here
"Donald Trump was eventually elected as the 45th President of the United States after winning all the key battleground states, despite Hillary Clinton receiving more votes across the country."
FPTP.
Not taking sides, just an observation.

 

[trex]

it seems to me on both occasions, a large number of voters use their vote as molotov cocktail.

 

[oldgroaner]

it seems to me on both occasions, a large number of voters use their vote as molotov cocktail.

Without caring where the damage was done!

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldtom]

Some time ago, I alluded to the fact that 'Brexit' wasn't simply an expression of a desire on the part of some people for an independent UK, ouside of the EU.

My fear then was that there was something far worse afoot - the re-emergence of fascism led by lunatic minor politicians. The events since I made those remarks have done nothing to quell my fears and over the last week, new and frightening expressions of anarchic behaviour have been witnessed.

Both here in the UK, with Farage's threats to mobilise 100,000 of his disciples for a march through London on the day of the 'Brexit' appeal hearing and in the USA, over the last 24 hours we have seen images that reflect the growth of their far-right neo-Nazi movement, such as this, on the anniversary of 'Kristallnacht':



I don't know if our right-wing media has made mention of it but the Mirror has an article about David Duke, a former leader of the KKK, who claims that his compatriots-in-hate were largely responsible for Trump's election success.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/former-ku-klux-klan-leader-9230633

Still not worried about the rise of fascism? You should be!

Tom

 

[trex]

Tom, it seems to me that Trump was right to make the rust belt (Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pensylvania) that voted for Obama his target. Clinton was associated with Wall Street, that's her downfall. He only has to tell them that he is their messenger, he'll tell Wall Street to change or else and they'll vote for him.
We have our own rust belt and Cameron made the same mistake. Corbyn may fare better.

 

[trex]

I was hoping that Trump's win would give the pound a little respite but that did not last long. The pound continues today on its downward path.
$1.23 this morning, heading for $1.15 by Christmas. A new round of price rise for e-bikes in the new year seems likely now.

 

[mike killay]

 

[oldgroaner]

What is surprising is that the party went along with this man, possibly they imagine they can put the Genie back in the bottle,but I suspect this will just muddy the Racial tensions in the US even more, as the voters will find he can't come through with his promises to rejuvenate the depressed areas, and really doesn't give a damn about the poor, or ethnic minorities anymore than Clinton did.
And frankly the "good ole" boys white vote will never be satisfied until all they see are white faces like their own.
They live in a dream of the Wild West.
As to the wall on the southern border, Politicians have been building walls from pre historic times, they didn't work then, and won't now either.
I suspect that he will end up making Boris Johnson look like a genius by comparison.
No wonder Putin sent him congratulations, it should have been a letter of condolences to the ethnic minorities in America.