Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

So,trying to discriminate against me on the basis of nationality? I live where I please and it is none of your business where that is. Discrediting facts is a very poor alternative to presenting an argument, alternative view. Is that really all you can come up with?

derf, face it, you screwed up. You went off on a tantrum when the BREXIT verdict was delivered and proclaimed that you had left the xenophobic and racist UK to go and live & work in France. That didn't happen. It was just you being a big baby and trying to make a large statement.

You won't leave the UK because you have a good job, comfortable life style and have been made to feel welcome in the UK. That's why you will stay and that is how it should be.

 

[trex]

BINGO!

not so fast Tillson.

The tory majority will be reduced to practically zero by May next year, when the snap election may be called. Labour's position is clear: very soft brexit, stay in the Single Market to protect jobs. I think Corbyn will split the brexit votes, all those 'reasonable people who voted for brexit' will prefer Labour. Only the hardcore who feel more English than British Brexiters will vote for the Tories. It's not a popularity contest betwween Corbyn and May, even if it is, the hardcore brexiters don't rate May anyway.
I think Labour will regain seats that they lost to the Tories at the last election.
The remainers will vote for the LibDems. The LibDems will regain seats they lost in the last election. Scotland will go to SNP, Wales go back to Labour because Mr Corbyn will do very well there. NI may go to Labour.
The Tories will almost be certain to be the biggest party in England but nowhere else. However, they won't be able to form the next government on their own. Tories will be split,Labour can unite around a soft brexit Corbyn.
The next government will be a coalition. No chance of hard brexit.
Brexit ministers are economic with the truth. They should spell out what can be achieve after aarticle 50: a quick hard brexit, nothing else. The EU is not interested to let them negotiate any trade deal, they much prefer to see the brexit bunch gone before negotiating properly.

 

[tillson]

Happily we are not all trapped,like you,in our heads and lives and views of others in narrow constricting concepts of nationality. Neither,equally happily,do we all try to dismiss others on that basis as you try to.

I have family and friends all over Europe and North America. It's great, they are great! I love them all. Hooray!!!

 

[derf]

derf, face it, you screwed up. You went off on a tantrum when the BREXIT verdict was delivered and proclaimed that you had left the xenophobic and racist UK to go and live & work in France. That didn't happen. Tt was just you being a big baby and trying to make a large statement.

You won't leave the UK because you have a good job, comfortable life style and have been made to feel welcome in the UK. That's why you will stay and that is how it should be.

A rather familiar fantasy. Not that unlike those about old tom. I believe it's called projective identification,insisting that others must be what one fears and knows oneself to be. I'm not you.

 

[tillson]

A rather familiar fantasy. Not that unlike those about old times. I believe it's called projective identification,insisting that others must be what one fears and knows oneself to be. I'm not you.

I am sure that is relevant to something, somewhere, but not to what we are currently discussing.

The facts about what I said remain.

 

[derf]

I am sure that is relevant to something, somewhere, but not to what we are currently discussing.

The facts about what I said remain.

You haven't said any "facts". You had your by now familiar attempt at discrediting and insulting. It's a lot like may or farages bluster really. Come back when you have something better.

 

[trex]

That is unless this recent BREXIT court ruling is dealt with properly. People are angry about it, very angry and I would suggest it will influence those who are wavering back towards remain.

I suspect the angry ones are kippers.
the vast majority of brexit voters are law abiiding 'reasonble people'. 17.5 millions voted for brexit, only 4m of those are kippers. If anything, 13.5m brexiters would rather parliament is in charge of brexit than tory ministers.

 

[derf]

I suspect the angry ones are kippers.
the vast majority of brexit voters are law abiiding 'reasonble people'. 17.5 millions voted for brexit, only 4m of those are kippers. If anything, 13.5m brexiters would rather parliament is in charge of brexit than tory ministers.

It would take a 97 carat kipper to actually choose to put an ethically and otherwise challenged lizard like submarine may in executive charge of playing poker with the nation's destiny

 

[oldgroaner]

So,trying to discriminate against me on the basis of nationality? I live where I please and it is none of your business where that is. Discrediting facts is a very poor alternative to presenting an argument, alternative view. Is that really all you can come up with?

YES, do you really have to ask?

 

[tillson]

I suspect the angry ones are kippers.
the vast majority of brexit voters are law abiiding 'reasonble people'. 17.5 millions voted for brexit, only 4m of those are kippers. If anything, 13.5m brexiters would rather parliament is in charge of brexit than tory ministers.

That message somehow sent before I had finished typing, but I think you got the gist.

This court ruling is doing nothing for remain and is probably strengthening the resolve of BREXITers.

As a BREXIT voter, I must concede that I am disappointed with the lack of information coming from the BREXIT camp. They need to start spelling out what a post EU, UK will look like. That can be done without giving away the negotiating hand.

I really think we need a general election. Political parties need to state exactly where they stand on the EU and what vision they have for the UK's future under the circumstances of in or out, and put that at the heart of their manifesto. It's not ideal, but I think it the only way to resolve the current situation with any chance of appeasing the population as a whole.

To ride roughshod over the referendum will mean that it will never go away for at least a generation and that will be damaging.

I don't think May will do the General Election thing, she is evil in its purest form and is also power hungry.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I don't think May will go for an early election ,it's too risky,Corbyn has already started asking what form May is intending that Brexit should take,that could mean that Labour is intending to be mischevious about any Brexit vote.
Have you noticed that every Remain MP says when questioned about Brexit immediately says that they will uphold the referendum vote,they have to say that otherwise they spend the next 10 mins arguing about democracy. But then they go on to say they need a discussion about the form of Brexit,the devil is in the detail and this is why May doesn't want a discussion/vote about Brexit in Parliament,Remain MP's will insist that we stay in the single market and that kills any negotiation manoeuvres that May will try to leverage.
This is also the reason why May won't want a general election,Remain Tory MP's would still insist on the single market,she would be no further forward in trying to achieve hard Brexit.
Assuming she loses the appeal against the legal challenge,which looks very likely,she is going to have to go to parliament and do all sorts of horse trading to get some form of Brexit which parliament agrees and gives her some form to negotiate with....cringe,she may have to do a deal with Nichola Sturgeon,hehe!!!
She is running out of time to trigger Article 50 prior to March 31. The court case won't be known until mid January.so she has 10 weeks to get the act published ,then through the commons,then through the Lords,seems impossible when the Lords is heavily Remain.
After that she has to hawk the begging bowl around the EU to find 14 states that will allow us to leave and overcome the QMV majority,good job for Fox....except he couldn't organise the proverbial in a brewery.
The EU have said that they never liked Brexit and are certainly not going it easy or attractive for us to leave,they will fight hard against us getting a good deal,it will certainly be a worse deal than we already have.
Every time May and Co makes a mess of Brexit the pound strengthens,which shows what the markets and the world think of Brexit and think of this government.
I personally cannot see the point of Brexit except the ability to veto EU laws we don't think suits us,but I thought Cameron achieved that with his deal.
I think immigrants enhance our country,the farms,NHS and the London finance houses could not exist without them,my wife is an immigrant and my son is dating a lovely Spanish girl. Leaving the EU single market and opening up free trade with countries such as China would be economic suicide.
KudosDave

 

[tillson]

You haven't said any "facts". You had your by now familiar attempt at discrediting and insulting. It's a lot like may or farages bluster really. Come back when you have something better.

I'll come back to you on that one later. Please excuse me for a short while.

 

[oldgroaner]

I am sure that is relevant to something, somewhere, but not to what we are currently discussing.

The facts about what I said remain.

Well done tillson you have summed up a fine analysis of the content of your recent posts.
Still no reasoned arguments in Favour of Brexit to offer?

 

[derf]

I'll come back to you on that one later. Please excuse me for a short while.

yes, although that does sound a lot like may's mantra of "not wanting to show her hand"? it's fine, i'm sure coming up with a coherent argument for brexit may take time.

 

[oldgroaner]

A letter from the Halifax Building Society outlined an example of what tillson refers to as "The Goodness will flow"
"Your Reward account currently gives you £5 net per month, etc., etc.
This will be changed to £3 ner per month after we have taken a number of Factors into account including the low interest rate envorinment.

40% drop, but of course no one for a single moment imagines that has anything to do with the influence of the Brexit Vote.
Perish the thought it is obviously just a case of Profiteering on the part of the Halifax.
Oh, hang on a minute, it isn't something I'm paying, but being paid, so who do I blame for that?
The Goodness is indeed flowing, straight down the drain.

 

[Kudoscycles]

That message somehow sent before I had finished typing, but I think you got the gist.

This court ruling is doing nothing for remain and is probably strengthening the resolve of BREXITers.

As a BREXIT voter, I must concede that I am disappointed with the lack of information coming from the BREXIT camp. They need to start spelling out what a post EU, UK will look like. That can be done without giving away the negotiating hand.

I really think we need a general election. Political parties need to state exactly where they stand on the EU and what vision they have for the UK's future under the circumstances of in or out, and put that at the heart of their manifesto. It's not ideal, but I think it the only way to resolve the current situation with any chance of appeasing the population as a whole.

To ride roughshod over the referendum will mean that it will never go away for at least a generation and that will be damaging.

The court ruling did everything for Remainers,it made sure that our parliament scrutinised and if necessary amended what government thought 'what Brexit means',surely all of us would want our parliament to decide on the form of Brexit not one lady?
But a general election with a comprehensive manifesto would dilute the vote on Brexit.....for example I am against HS2 and Heathrow,that may be proposed by an otherwise Leave MP.
It seems there is enough people who want to Leave the EU,and many who still want to Remain,so Remainers and Leavers will have to compromise on the form of Brexit,this compromise will evolve out of a proper discussion/vote on Brexit in Parliament,but it won't satisfy the WE VOTED LEAVE,SO LEAVE AT ANY COST,Brexiter,they are IMHO irresponsible.
I would find Brexit attractive,if we stayed in the single market,had immigration that came to our country as a result of an invite by an employer,had some veto on EU laws,remained access to EU standards(CE marking),maintenance of E111 health arrangements,security of EU people already in the UK,same UK people in Europe......Tillson,would that be an attractive form of Brexit to you?
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

yes, although that does sound a lot like may's mantra of "not wanting to show her hand"? it's fine, i'm sure coming up with a coherent argument for brexit may take time.

I have the very thing, and perhaps Teresa May would care to try it to, as an answer is pretty much guaranteed.

http://www.brainjar.com/dhtml/ouija/

I got one! I typed in Brexit as the question, and the answer was two words
"Not clear"
Recommended!, as this is pretty much the situation as it stands today.
Now, perhaps if I type in one of tillson's missives, what answer will it give?

 

[tillson]

I would find Brexit attractive,if we stayed in the single market,had immigration that came to our country as a result of an invite by an employer,had some veto on EU laws,remained access to EU standards(CE marking),maintenance of E111 health arrangements,security of EU people already in the UK,same UK people in Europe......Tillson,would that be an attractive form of Brexit to you?
KudosDave

Broadly yes, it would.

 

[oldgroaner]

tillson said: ↑
That message somehow sent before I had finished typing, but I think you got the gist.

This court ruling is doing nothing for remain and is probably strengthening the resolve of BREXITers.

As a BREXIT voter, I must concede that I am disappointed with the lack of information coming from the BREXIT camp. They need to start spelling out what a post EU, UK will look like. That can be done without giving away the negotiating hand.

I really think we need a general election. Political parties need to state exactly where they stand on the EU and what vision they have for the UK's future under the circumstances of in or out, and put that at the heart of their manifesto. It's not ideal, but I think it the only way to resolve the current situation with any chance of appeasing the population as a whole.

To ride roughshod over the referendum will mean that it will never go away for at least a generation and that will be damaging."
...............................................................
Frankly there is no point in going to the country until the terms of settlement are thrashed out and presented to the public.
Quite simply to imagine it will "Go away" if we come out of the EU is even less likely than if we dont.
This is a catch 22 situation, made worse by the fact that the right wing press has not been closed down, and will continue stirring the matter up until hell freezes over.
There needs to be a proper expose by investigation of the way that this country has been governed, and the lies to the public over the last 40 years revealed and accounted for if we are ever to move on positively from this point.
Our Problem isn't extricating ourselves from a massively complex system of EU laws and regulations, but from the Matrix of lies carefully woven over them to serve the interest of the Elite that run this nation for their own exclusive advantage.
And what do they want to do now? Replace one Matrix of lies with an ever more perverted one that the one they have so carefully constructed over the past 40 plus years to cover their own mistakes and deliberate lies.

 

[tillson]

yes, although that does sound a lot like may's mantra of "not wanting to show her hand"? it's fine, i'm sure coming up with a coherent argument for brexit may take time.

derf on 23 July you wrote this:

I can only conclude that you don't read the business news,and do not have investments. I suggest you have a look. Rather a lot has happened,notably to the pound. Yup, I've moved to France. I'm in the south. The Riviera,recent tragedy aside,it has a human,communal atmosphere I didn't experience amongst the xenophobia in brexit UK. I have property in UK,pay quite a lot of tax there,but more than that I don't live by narrow minded nationalist preconceptions,so your jibe about me having left doesn't really have any bearing on my life.

Then when I made the following comment about one of your posts:

Anyway, why are you bothered, I thought you were now residing in the land of garlic and cheese.

ah, a brexiter returning to his favourite topic, immigrants. and telling them to get lost.

How could I have been telling you to get lost if you were already in France?

It's a trivial point and to be honest, I don't really care where you live.

As I said, I suspect that you still reside in the UK and the post about moving to France was merely a tantrum conceived with the intention of portraying the UK as a racist country. Please stop telling lies in order to stir up racial tension that does not exist. You are obsessed and fixated by racism to the extent that you are imagining it, and where non exists, you manufacture it.