Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

You lost. Now live with it

I don't consider we on the Remain side lost.

I can accept a decision by under 40% of the electorate with a tiny majority in a general election, since it's alterable shortly after at the next election.

This is different, a decision we're potentially stuck with for a very long time, for example 40 years since the last referendum.

An under 4% win margin decided by under 40% of the electorate isn't anything like acceptable as a permanent decision by the UK population, having such far reaching effects. This is especially true when the result is being unlawfully stretched to be include an answer to a question not posed in the referendum, i.e. leaving the single market.

We may yet get this reversed, but that would not be a win for Remainers, merely a sensible response to the indecison shown in the referendum outcome.
.

 

[gray198]

that's a popular brexit refrain ("you lost live with it"). no offence, but in reality you lost, and you will live with it (regardless of what I or anyone else say). have a look at what's happening to the UK economy. On another level, I cant help recognising how central spite and anger is to brexit sentiments. it's truly the most cut of ones nose to spite ones face incident I've witnessed in my life.

I suppose it's similar to the refrain from the remainers.'' you didn't know what you were voting for. You were misled'' I knew exactly what I was voting for. Admittedly nobody knows the full consequences of leaving, despite a few on here pretending they do. But then again nobody knows the full consequences of staying in the EU. Personally I think that they have many more challenges to their authority waiting in the wings. And despite all their hard words they still seem to be hoping that somehow we will reverse the decision. After all us leaving is going to make a big hole in the budget. What baffles me is why we cannot just trade in a sensible way without being subject to political control. But then these people are power hungry and greedy and don't want to see their gravy train derailed

 

[derf]

I suppose it's similar to the refrain from the remainers.'' you didn't know what you were voting for. You were misled'' I knew exactly what I was voting for. Admittedly nobody knows the full consequences of leaving, despite a few on here pretending they do. But then again nobody knows the full consequences of staying in the EU. Personally I think that they have many more challenges to their authority waiting in the wings. And despite all their hard words they still seem to be hoping that somehow we will reverse the decision. After all us leaving is going to make a big hole in the budget. What baffles me is why we cannot just trade in a sensible way without being subject to political control. But then these people are power hungry and greedy and don't want to see their gravy train derailed

fair enough, in a sense that's a balanced analysis. But in some significant ways I fundamentally disagree. I'm no economist, but even I knew about the UK trade deficit, reliance on overseas investors, service based economy. it also didn't take much to see boris' opportunism, or farage's populism and lack of substance for what it is.

 

[oldgroaner]

Agree TRex, but I think the denying remainers are creating enough

Who said it was a whim. It's been long overdue. You seem to take the view that 17 plus million people should not have a view if it does not concur with yours. Very arrogant. Nobody can be right but me. You lost. Now live with it

Tell me what else it could be? what percentage had the slightest clue of how the EU operates, or what was at stake?
Once again you jump to the wrong conclusion, no one is saying the the 17 million do not have a right to their own opinions, only YOU have implied that, because let's face it there is no evidence that the vote was based on a realistic premise.
All the promises made by the leaders of the campaign for Brexit have proved to be abject lies.
And your opinion remains obstinately "You lost, live with it!" and you regard that sort of response as being any more than idiotic and Arrogant?
There was only a 4% difference in the vote and the idiot Farage as I pointed out regards that as too small a margin to accept, so why should we?
I take it you did read that? or just ignore it as inconvenient as usual?
No my friend, you are the one that has lost, lets see just how.

• You fell for a pack of lies
• You were misled into imagining that the leaders of the Plot actually had a plan or intended to give you what you want
• You imagined from the media propaganda that the Government wasn't the one responsible for your discontent and the EU was
• You have failed utterly to understand the benefits we have had by being a member of the EU.
• We are now faced with a disastrous exit from the EU that will hit you financially

And you are unwilling to accept the possibility that it was all a big mistake.
There is nothing arrogant about telling someone they have made a bad mistake.
Real arrogance is when you stick to an idea that is plainly and obviously going to have an antisocial outcome and promote the worst civil unrest and unhappiness as this has and will.
You and those like you are responsible for damaging the future of the next generation because you were conned.
Long overdue? no one had ever spoken about it except for a few nutters until Cameron made the mistake of trying to protect the Tory vote from UKIP and raised the Referendum issue, and suckers immediately fell for it, even though they had never given it a moment's though before that.
"You lost, but we all have to live with it"
Do you really believe you will ever benefit from this? and what leads you to that astonishingly optimistic view?
Advance a logical argument in support of Brexit: there is a challenge for you.

 

[oldgroaner]

I suppose it's similar to the refrain from the remainers.'' you didn't know what you were voting for. You were misled'' I knew exactly what I was voting for. Admittedly nobody knows the full consequences of leaving, despite a few on here pretending they do. But then again nobody knows the full consequences of staying in the EU. Personally I think that they have many more challenges to their authority waiting in the wings. And despite all their hard words they still seem to be hoping that somehow we will reverse the decision. After all us leaving is going to make a big hole in the budget. What baffles me is why we cannot just trade in a sensible way without being subject to political control. But then these people are power hungry and greedy and don't want to see their gravy train derailed

"I knew exactly what I was voting for."
Fascinating, care to tell us what you were voting FOR?
And by the way, I don't want to reverse the decision, I want the lesson to go ahead as a lot of voters are really rather slow on the uptake and seem to need to be confronted with the consequences of their actions before they learn.
From the posting it is clear even now you still do not understand the relationship between our government and the EU,and never have simply accepted the propaganda in the media.

 

[trex]

...
What baffles me is why we cannot just trade in a sensible way without being subject to political control.

that sentiment must be wide spread among the outers.
Do you think we benefited from EU membership in the last 40 years? If you don't take that benefit seriously, then it's time to face reality.

 

[shemozzle999]

EU Summit to discuss EU-China anti dumping rules in light of WTO USA ruling:

http://english.cri.cn/12394/2016/10/20/2941s942984.htm

 

[gray198]

that sentiment must be wide spread among the outers.
Do you think we benefited from EU membership in the last 40 years? If you don't take that benefit seriously, then it's time to face reality.

I am not saying that we did not benefit from membership, but It has come at a high price and no doubt that is going to keep rising . As I said earlier I do not think that ours will be the last challenge to the status quo. And I still fail to see why we have to surrender control of our country to trade with Europe. They have stuff we want to buy and vice versa. Only politicians could over complicate it. Maybe a naïve view in today's world where control = power= money=more power. The concept was good but as usual was corrupted by arrogance and greed

 

[trex]

yes, the price of membership will keep rising but is it worth it? that's the 65 billion Pound question. The market prices the current benefit to our economy at £65 billions. Outside the EU, our economy is just not big enough to stop the EU, China and the USA to push us about. Is the pooling of sovereignty worth it? I'd say yes. The EU is a fortress, Rome empire where everyone is a citizen. The general leaning of EU politics is much more to my liking than that in our own country.

 

[anotherkiwi]

After all us leaving is going to make a big hole in the budget.

You are paying in less per capita than all the other major economies. The hole isn't as big as you seem to think it is and I think not having your contribution is a cheap price to pay to get rid of you and your attempts to sabotage the EU project.

 

[oldgroaner]

yes, the price of membership will keep rising but is it worth it? that's the 65 billion Pound question. The market prices the current benefit to our economy at £65 billions. Outside the EU, our economy is just not big enough to stop the EU, China and the USA to push us about. Is the pooling of sovereignty worth it? I'd say yes. The EU is a fortress, Rome empire where everyone is a citizen. The general leaning of EU politics is much more to my liking than that in our own country.

I'll second that, and going back to petty kingdoms seems popular among Brexit voters for some reason, yet it doesn't appeal to the Germans, who previously comprised 32 separate little nations with several different Royal houses too.
The future is in a unified European State not a petty little offshore backward state.
We might as well go back to Wessex, Northumbria, Gwynned, etc.,etc.
Backward looking nonsense.
Sure Europe has problems and we should be there helping to sort them out, not cause them.
Why do we pander to the rich parasites that rule this country and make fools of it's population, and worse, play on their weaknesses and exploit them.?

 

[oldtom]

And your opinion remains obstinately "You lost, live with it!" and you regard that sort of response as being any more than idiotic and Arrogant?

I really admire your patience OG as it is very difficult to discuss politico-economic matters with those so immature they are prepared to accept the word of proven liars and are incapable of reasoned argument. The epithet, 'Brexidiot', suits such individuals very nicely.

The party of the aristocracy, the greedy, the selfish, the millionaires and all those without a shred of compassion for their fellow man is in disarray, largely because of this 'Brexit' nonsense. There is an overwhelming case for the government to go to the country in search of a mandate before this matter is progressed further. Mrs May's position grows weaker by the day and having craved power for such a long time, I think she is terrified to risk an election.

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

Even David Davis is losing his nerve....
Brexit Secretary David Davis has admitted businesses face a damaging “cliff edge” if the Government misses its two-year deadline for striking a fresh EU trade deal.

Quizzed in the Commons, Mr Davis agreed with a Labour MP who outlined the dangers if companies are forced to “fall back on WTO rules”, in 2019.

Earlier this month, business leaders – including the CBI and manufacturers' body the EEF - wrote an open letter to ministers, making a plea for barrier-free trade with Europe to be preserved.

It warned defaulting to trading by World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules would leave 90 per cent of UK goods trade with the EU subject to new tariffs.

Still think Brexit is a good idea?
The moment we trigger Article 50 the EU know that we have 2 years to conclude the negotiations. Even if all 27 countries were working with us it is almost impossible to conclude trade deals in 2 years and the E27 know that the longer it takes the more time pressure on the UK,it is in their interest to delay.
However,it looks like parliament will need to trigger Article 50 and we know by 390 votes to 203 votes that may never happen.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

I really admire your patience OG as it is very difficult to discuss politico-economic matters with those so immature they are prepared to accept the word of proven liars and are incapable of reasoned argument. The epithet, 'Brexidiot', suits such individuals very nicely.

The party of the aristocracy, the greedy, the selfish, the millionaires and all those without a shred of compassion for their fellow man is in disarray, largely because of this 'Brexit' nonsense. There is an overwhelming case for the government to go to the country in search of a mandate before this matter is progressed further. Mrs May's position grows weaker by the day and having craved power for such a long time, I think she is terrified to risk an election.

Tom

Patience is necessary for the simple reason the people who voted for Brexit, are non the less our people, and have been cruelly misled.
They do not understand the concept of the EU being more than simply a Market Place, rather than a community of rational and like minded people, intent on the welfare of all.
And are either unaware of the many benefits in their living standards that have come from there and never would have if it had not existed.
It doesn't rule us, it rules WITH US as we are involved in all laws that are passed
The leave camp exhibit a tortoise like ability to wind the neck back into the shell and pretend all is well which is all too prevalent egged on by the Express and Mail.
Alas the old saying "They know the cost of everything and the Value of Nothing" describes this point of view exactly, and have closed their minds, having made a decision rather than be prepared to offer evidence to support it.
Admittedly a difficult thing to do as it is a rare as Hen's Teeth.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Agree TRex, but I think the denying remainers are creating enough

Who said it was a whim. It's been long overdue. You seem to take the view that 17 plus million people should not have a view if it does not concur with yours. Very arrogant. Nobody can be right but me. You lost. Now live with it

Perhaps we all lost,for even if I voted Leave I cannot see anything we are going to achieve by leaving? Perhaps someone would enlighten me on what outcome is looking good for us after Brexit?
May's soundbites dont really work any more?
'Brexit means Brexit,we are going to make a success of it'.....I just dont see in which way I should be working to make a success?
'The Tory party has listened,we are the party for everyone'....does man from Hartlepool (Question Time tonight) think that May has listened to his protest vote and is going to look after him,how does Brexit help him?
'We are keeping our cards close to avoid giving away our negotiating position'...we dont have a negotiating position its either hard Brexit or no Brexit...jump over the cliff or walk away from the edge!!!
Bit when you analyse May's or Davis's speeches there is no content at all,it is waffle,actually lots of waffle....are they keeping their powder dry or dont they have a clue,I obviously by my postings I think the latter.
But I am fed up with the 'You lost,we won,live with it'....what exactly have you won?
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

I suppose it's similar to the refrain from the remainers.'' you didn't know what you were voting for. You were misled'' I knew exactly what I was voting for. Admittedly nobody knows the full consequences of leaving, despite a few on here pretending they do. But then again nobody knows the full consequences of staying in the EU. Personally I think that they have many more challenges to their authority waiting in the wings. And despite all their hard words they still seem to be hoping that somehow we will reverse the decision. After all us leaving is going to make a big hole in the budget. What baffles me is why we cannot just trade in a sensible way without being subject to political control. But then these people are power hungry and greedy and don't want to see their gravy train derailed

What do you mean by 'why we cannot just trade in a sensible way without being subject to political control' ????
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

You are paying in less per capita than all the other major economies. The hole isn't as big as you seem to think it is and I think not having your contribution is a cheap price to pay to get rid of you and your attempts to sabotage the EU project.

Anotherkiwi, you are blessed by having the ability to view such matters with an objectivity absent from most of those in the UK who would have us divorce ourselves from the main body of European trade and economic co-operation.

To be fair to those I refer to as 'Brexidiots', it is hardly surprising when, for most of their life, they have been fed a diet of lies, propaganda and a distortion of historical fact through school in childhood and adolescence, then by all forms of news and entertainment media as adults. Many politicians have been proved to be cheats and liars yet there are still thousands, no - tens of thousands - who are prepared to accept anything such cretins say without question.

If only these people to whom I refer had the intelligence to question what they hear or read and the ability to see themselves as others see them, they might behave in an independent, self-confident and opinionated manner, rather than the automatons they have become because of the reasons I have just mentioned.

A certain Mr Burns penned as much centuries ago:

“O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion.”

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Here is an example of what this Government does.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-face-eu-showdown-over-9082367
"
The dumping of cheap Chinese steel on European markets has cost thousands of jobs both in Britain and the continent, yet for the past three years Britain has been blocking attempts by other European nations to abolish the EU’s so-called ‘lesser duty rule’ which restricts import tariffs to just 13%.

In contrast the USA has been able to protect its steel industry by slapping swingeing tariffs on Chinese steel of 265%."
And Brexit voters want to "Take back control" and put it in the hands of these idiots?

 

[anotherkiwi]

In the case of steel it isn't "idiots" rather "dishonest persons".

Blocking the EU you are good at, be gone!

 

[Kudoscycles]

Ok some Leavers say we don't know what will happen until we leave,but we can predict some outcomes based upon the info government is telling us.
Take the small bicycle manufacturer Brompton,a business that I am sure many of us are proud of,if I was the MD of Brompton I would be worried...
The current situation is that Brompton buys product from various countries but,I am sure,is careful to ensure enough manufacturing and assembling cost for it to be deemed an EU made product and thus enjoy low import tariff duty on the parts it has to import. It can sell to all the 27 EU countries tariff free and use the trade deals that the EU have negotiated with 52 non EU countries,it is a strong export company that is protected by the EU against 'dumping' from Asian suppliers (China).
Under the deal that Davis and Fox propose we are going to have a free trade deal with China and hard Brexit with the EU. If that happens then the anti-dumping tariff of 68% from China to the UK will be eliminated....Brompton will have to fight against volume/low cost suppliers such as Dahon,who can produce at much lower cost than Brompton,it would be a David and Goliath struggle.
The U.K. home market will be very competitive,a nice folder maybe less than £150.00, good for consumers not good for a UK bike manufacturer.
If we go for hard Brexit,May and Davis preferred option,the EU would treat the UK as a satellite of China,bikes shipped from the UK to EU would be subject to 68% anti dumping duty. If one of the German bike suppliers were to build Brompton style folders in Germany then Brompton would struggle to compete. Also Brompton would need the UK negotiators to achieve trade deals with the countries that are currently trade deal connected by the EU.
I think Brompton would have no choice but to set up an assembly plant in Europe.
But the likes of Fox and Davis are not businessmen ,I am concerned they don't understand the result of free trade with China and hard Brexit with the EU.
KudosDave