Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

To be honest the last place I would use as a positive role model is The US of A,

Is that your image of a future europe Flecc ? Can we really hold USA up as a shining standard to achieve ?

Oh dear, talk about misrepresentation! In what way was I holding up the USA as a model, it's the very last thing I would ever do?

I merely corrected Brendan's impression that the states enjoyed little devolution, when in fact they control most matters.
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[BrendanJ]

Oh dear, talk about misrepresentation! In what way was I holding up the USA as a model, it's the very last thing I would ever do?

I merely corrected Brendan's impression that the states enjoyed little devolution, when in fact they control most matters.
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Interesting, because it seems our beloved bureaucrats vision is more centralist than even America then , because our impression is they want to control every aspect, and more in there pursuit of the EU dream
That's the impression anyway and is why Europeans not just Brits are getting nervous

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Its probably worth pointing out , since we,ve got onto USA and USE that the introduction of a common currency for a group of countries ( as with euo) was probably biggest financial experiment ever. It was first time it had ever been done between non federated states. That single action is probably responsible for many difficulties eu now faces.
A country wide common value currency was not introduced in USA until 1914, with introduction of federal reserve and bank. Even though states had been "United" for years, individual states issued and printed their own currency and established its value between states prior to 1914 . A dollar issued in NewYork state could be of different value to one in California....eu in its wisdom introduced euro before federation and had no mechanics in place for countries to alter its relative value, fine for Germany, France but disastrous for Greece This is probably responsible for many of the poorer countries ( in euro) financial problems now but many poirer coutries were bribed into euro with debts written off and low interest loans.
The federation should have come before the euro, UK economists said as much 15 years ago.
What I,m saying is the eu was not ready for euro, but still went ahead and introduced it.It still isn't ready now.
Does eu really know what its doing ? Ask Greece and Spain.
In effect eu was trying to behave as if it was a country without a " national" bank and was plainly neither a country or even united. Probably totally OT but ???

Probably somebody is thinking what difference does that make
Well imagine a crisis in Alabama, that state has security of federal reserve,federal guards,FBI and USA armed forces to call on. Its their duty to bail Alabama out, come what may. Now take the crisis in Greece. They go cap in hand to Merkel, eu or IMF and get told to accept austerity, pay their taxes or give sovereignty of their islands to Germany for help. ???
That's our wonderful eu, it simply does not have the infrastructure,finances or financial clout to be a federation.
Getting it to point of being capable of above is way beyond the cost countries would be willing to hand over or could even afford, and that's before we look into the politics of handing control over so we could get there.

 

[gray198]

Just watching news night. What a pile of rubbish from Each Davis. Asks a question of Crispin Blunt who is trying to explain some options for the UK . Then he proceeds to talk over him all the way through. Absolutely useless.

 

[BrendanJ]

Its probably worth pointing out , since we,ve got onto USA and USE that the introduction of a common currency for a group of countries ( as with euo) was probably biggest financial experiment ever. It was first time it had ever been done between non federated states. That single action is probably responsible for many difficulties eu now faces.
A country wide common value currency was not introduced in USA until 1914, with introduction of federal reserve and bank. Even though states had been federated for years, individual states issued and printed their own currency and established its value between states..eu in its wisdom introduced euro before federation. This is probably responsible for many of the poorer countries ( in euro) financial problems now.
The federation should have come before the euro, UK economists said as much 15 years ago.
What I,m saying is the eu was not ready for euro, but still went ahead and introduced it.It still isn't ready now.

Completely agree and it is the main fault line that is most likely to split the EU, which is why in my view we will ultimately have to embrace 2 tier Europe
A truly convergent euro area, with realistic goal of a single entity, difficult and long term but perhaps achievable but bugger me if I know what the benefit is ( the French and Germans deserve each other)
And a wider trade area that is non euro and self governance

 

[flecc]

Interesting, because it seems our beloved bureaucrats vision is more centralist than even America then , because our impression is they want to control every aspect, and more in there pursuit of the EU dreams

That's definitely true, they are seeking full compatibility of major law, something that far from true in the USA where if one doesn't like the law, it's often just a case of nipping over the state line for it to change.
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[oldgroaner]

If you think you have lost, and are powerless then it is so! No one won battles from that position
But courage, and drive on the other hand..........

Courage requires having more than simple wishful thinking as a reason for committing to a rash and foolish show of bravado, courage requires you to face up to and accept the reality of our situation.
They are calling our bluff, and our so called leaders dare not invoke article 50 in the futile hope that someone will throw the dog a bone.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[BrendanJ]

U

Courage requires having more than simple wishful thinking as a reason for committing to a rash and foolish show of bravado, courage requires you to face up to and accept the reality of our situation.
They are calling our bluff, and our so called leaders dare not invoke article 50 in the futile hope that someone will throw the dog a bone.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

i dont think calling our bluff is quite right here and in any case I sense some differing views
Certainly they want to control the negotiations and article 50 helps them do that, i.e. No cosy chats, but also junker now wants us out, on his terms
And he is also being unreasonable given our current situation
Once our ducks are in a row we should serve article 50 and also know our strategy for exit but I think the negotiation will be not as straight forward as that. There are more considerations than that
But junker is a problem and time will tell whether he will still be around or not, I think not

 

[oldgroaner]

U

i dont think calling our bluff is quite right here and in any case I sense some differing views
Certainly they want to control the negotiations and article 50 helps them do that, i.e. No cosy chats, but also junker now wants us out, on his terms
And he is also being unreasonable given our current situation
Once our ducks are in a row we should serve article 50 and also know our strategy for exit but I think the negotiation will be not as straight forward as that. There are more considerations than that
But junker is a problem and time will tell whether he will still be around or not, I think not

In the papers this morning (Express and Telegraph) they are headlining that the French Finance ministers seem agreeable to a dialogue where all things are possible.
There is a slight problem, the comments from many readers are not inclined to want a deal to keep us in the EU," that's not what we voted for we want out!"
Some want a sensible deal, but a large number are feeling they have been short changed on the deal by the Government.
Not good.

 

[BrendanJ]

In the papers this morning (Express and Telegraph) they are headlining that the French Finance ministers seem agreeable to a dialogue where all things are possible.
There is a slight problem, the comments from many readers are not inclined to want a deal to keep us in the EU," that's not what we voted for we want out!"
Some want a sensible deal, but a large number are feeling they have been short changed on the deal by the Government.
Not good.

We voted for out. Any talk about some kind of in, is a distraction and leads to compromises that will be no good for us or for the Euro leadership, at least as things stand today
We should negotiate on basis of OUT,
However, there is always a however, that is not say that will be the final outcome!

 

[oldgroaner]

We voted for out. Any talk about some kind of in, is a distraction and leads to compromises that will be no good for us or for the Euro leadership, at least as things stand today
We should negotiate on basis of OUT,
However, there is always a however, that is not say that will be the final outcome!

Find me a politician who's heart is really with "The will of the people"
Certainly not Boris.
I can quite see why leave voters feel dismay at what is happening even though I have no wish to see us leave the EU.

 

[BrendanJ]

We voted for out. Any talk about some kind of in, is a distraction and leads to compromises that will be no good for us or for the Euro leadership, at least as things stand today
We should negotiate on basis of OUT,
However, there is always a however, that is not say that will be the final outcome!

By the way I also read the French statement but frankly may be a little misleading and is usual problem of loose talk that we also suffer from

 

[BrendanJ]

"Markets show Europe is just as vulnerable to Brexit as Britain"

Very interesting article in today's Telegraph ( couldn't get link) which clearly demonstrates why negotiation is ON as soon as Europe understands its own position

 

[trex]

all our economies are interlinked, if the FTSE recovers then the other indices will too. The next turning point is when parliament votes to repeal the 1972 European Community Act.
It could be delayed for a long time.
That's before arrticle 50 can be invoked.
The Pound opens weaker today.

 

[BrendanJ]

all our economies are interlinked, if the FTSE recovers then the other indices will too. The next turning point is when parliament votes to repeal the 1972 European Community Act.
It could be delayed for a long time.
That's before arrticle 50 can be invoked.
The Pound opens weaker today.

Read the article if you can get it, it paints a somewhat different story with logical reasoning

 

[BrendanJ]

Breaking news .Gove will stand for PM
That's probably sunk Borris, as I think Gove was the king maker

 

[trex]

Gove has better chance of winning than Johnson.
It may come down to Gove versus May.

 

[BrendanJ]

Gove has better chance of winning than Johnson.
It may come down to Gove versus May.

You are probably right but Borris has more appeal with the grass roots Tory members than either the school mistress or the bank manager
Anyway finally it's the team that counts

 

[oldgroaner]

Completely agree and it is the main fault line that is most likely to split the EU, which is why in my view we will ultimately have to embrace 2 tier Europe
A truly convergent euro area, with realistic goal of a single entity, difficult and long term but perhaps achievable but bugger me if I know what the benefit is ( the French and Germans deserve each other)
And a wider trade area that is non euro and self governance

"which is why in my view we will ultimately have to embrace 2 tier Europe"
Brendan at last you are revealed as a Remainer after all, (just fancied a bit of blackmail on the side?)
Alas for you there are a lot of people who will not be very happy and feel they have been cheated.
Nevertheless all kidding aside I applaud the realism of your latest offering.

 

[flecc]

Breaking news .Gove will stand for PM
That's probably sunk Borris, as I think Gove was the king maker

Gove has better chance of winning than Johnson.
It may come down to Gove versus May.

I hope so, I really don't want Johnson as PM, not now, not any time.
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