there are too many differing opinions around europe and too many questions of self interest. Already Spain has put a spanner in the works for Sturgeon because of fears that if scotland is allowed to break away from uk and join it will encourage some areas of Spain to do the same thing. I don't think it will be easy for her to win on this, and I think she knows it. Just a bit of showboating to try and look good on the world stageWhen you think of these things idealistically it sounds so wonderful
One World, equality, no more wars, trade on equal terms, the elimination of the nation state, no more poverty, free movement, freedom of expression, free love
But superimposed on the reality i fear this is Dangerously idealistic and frankly is probably 200 years before its time at best
Human nature and our current state is just not ready for that kind of scenario, which is more likely to backfire and lead to oppressive dictatorship and enslavement of the populace.
If you think this unrealistic then beware, i am being no less fancy full, less haste for heaven is my motto, it will come to all of us soon enough
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Forgive me if I misunderstand"But superimposed on the reality is fear this is Dangerously idealistic and frankly is probably 200 years before its time at best"
So only fear is preventing it happening but in 200 years or so it will?
The only thing we appear to differ on is the date.
It seems the idea is popular on the mainland]
Attitude toward further development of the EU into a federation of nation states
EU members with more people in favour of a federation than against in darker green
A federation of nation states is not in my view the same as United States of Europe, which as I read it is like USA, with just effectively regions but under over whelming central control, with just small amounts of devolution
If in style of USA then this is not realistic for Europe without huge stress and upheaval and realignment of everything we as individual countries value.
This is what is proposed at this moment
http://www.voltairenet.org/article192564.html
I fail to see a superstate in the text, see how you view it.
Detail in federation or super state. It's not significant.
What is is common law, money and self interest. No war and freedom to live and work.
Most people just want tomorrow to be like today but a little better. We don't need a revolution.
What is is common law, money and self interest. No war and freedom to live and work.
Most people just want tomorrow to be like today but a little better. We don't need a revolution.
The formation of an EU superstate is as Brendan remarked a long way off in timescale, what is going on is merely tentative moves towards low levels of integration on security and other matters
Just read first section and can't see any issue with this intention or words, but so far it is all bullshit in that it does not at all reflect what we have got
Such wonderful sounding intentions do not reflect what the countries individually and EU are doing.
This is the major mismatch between words and actions
I will read on for my further education and inspiration
Reading between the lines it looks like we will have real problems with Europe in future never mind now.
As I have pointed out earlier we have now replaced friends with potential enemies we do not have the power to counter if things turn ugly
We have gone back to the politics of the inter wars period.
Wow OG, you are well read aren't you, but I can't help feeling a little less might have been better,
Sometimes we can't rely on others views or statements or facts, but are better working it out for ourselves based on values, logic and indeed experience and instinct
This theology of Europe reads too much like an academics thesis for me, sorry!
Brendan, what they are proposing to do is dangerous to our interests if we cant influence it surely?
Maybe, who knows
The only guarantees are the avoidance of extremism, we are not doing too well on that at the moment.
The continuance of joint activities and open communication, we are all certainly trying
Facing up to the issues with honesty, calling a spade a spade and a willingness to understand differing views, we were not the best example on this thread, but perhaps getting there
Being realistic in our goals and committed to achieving them, more realism needed
Hope, optimism and more action less words
And the reason I have just read and not got involved was... Personal insults and lack of reasoned debate.
Asking me what planet I live on suggests I am strange because?
We cannot control everything. If they persist in such direction then let them try. I for one would not lose sleep over grandiose schemes of the French and Germans, especially this article at the end of the day is the treatise of one individual and is probably not really shared by his compatriots
Why I say an academic thesis
If I also understand your point we need to influence which comes back to the issue of from within or without
This is the wrong thinking in my opinion
Power is power, it matters not from were it comes
We are currently more powerful and influencing than we have ever been
Apologies Dave, maybe getting too intense in the subject and form of the thread
Sorry Brendan but that is a mistaken idea we are at their mercy
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If you think you have lost, and are powerless then it is so! No one won battles from that position
But courage, and drive on the other hand..........
White plastic chair manufacturers will be successful in your federation d8ve..
The reality of Europe now is worlds apart from the image portrayed. When eu manage to sort stuff out comensurate with a civilised country everywhere and not just in specific wealthy regions then your federation might work.
In mean time (IMO) eu wastes time and money on wrong things. Its a gravy train for too many. Lord Hill , our resigned commissioner, receives £40k per year for 3 years post his resignation. Can you imagine that in private sector,education or our civil service.
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I think you are greatly underestimating how much power the states of the USA have. In a very large number of areas it's the states that call the shots, overriding federal law at will. Indeed it's true to say that much of federal law is no more than guidance which states can adopt or overrule.
Even very fundamental things like the age of consent, the age at which one can drive and the running of prisons are matters for states.
And in our field of interest, the states set all of the laws on e-bikes and the road traffic laws appertaining to them, ranging from carte blanche to totally banned.
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To be honest the last place I would use as a positive role model is The US of A,
The dominance of corporations and financial institutions, the inequality, the racism , the under achievement of much of the population, the shear introversion, sorry I can't think of any positives and I have worked with many Americans and US companies
But accept your word that it is more devolved than I imagined
Is that your image of a future europe Flecc ? Can we really hold USA up as a shining standard to achieve ?