Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Indeed it was born of internal Tory politics and maybe that really is what is driving it still, not much to do with Europe?

I'm quite sure that's true. Although our objectives are diametrically opposed, there's much we agree on. I have between little and no respect for all the politicians involved, UK or EU.

I just happen to prefer the policies the EU has to reach it's objective of union, rather than the UK home policies in many matters, past and present.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

The strange thing is the majority of the Tory party want to stay in, but as you say they would go along with Boris as leader. I don't deny your suggestion but it raises a lot of questions about motivation, politics in general, and just were this campaign is going. Indeed it was born of internal Tory politics and maybe that really is what is driving it still, not much to do with Europe?

Oh I had a Terible thought, not an Eton toffs debating society annual event surely!,

 

[oldgroaner]

"
Outrage at bid to 'rig' EU vote: Row as Cameron backs extending voters' deadline"
Both the Express and Mail came out with this quite incredible headline,which makes a mockery of the notion that they are serious newspapers, and does no credit to the idiots who responded with comments agreeing with this nonsense.
Anything, literally anything is used as Brexit propaganda when surely even the most mentally challenged voter realises that anything that maximises the number of votes cast is a victory for democracy,
But then, what have these two papers ever had to do with that?
And sure enough the usual comments of "Fix" appeared as expected.
No wonder the country ends up with the Governments it does.

 

[oldgroaner]

The strange thing is the majority of the Tory party want to stay in, but as you say they would go along with Boris as leader. I don't deny your suggestion but it raises a lot of questions about motivation, politics in general, and just were this campaign is going. Indeed it was born of internal Tory politics and maybe that really is what is driving it still, not much to do with Europe?

From the Conservative point of view it's a win/win situation for afterwards when the going gets even worse.

• If we stay they can Blame the EU
• If we leave they can Blame the EU AND the UK voters.

And in the meantime it glosses over the various things going wrong in the background, such as

• Only three patrol boats where Malta has ten!! Sorry, but I'm laughing hysterically at this.
• A Royal navy that has Frigates that need to be fitted with banks of oars
• Aircraft carriers with no Aircraft?
• Only five Front line and one reserve Tyhoon equipped squadrons
• Road Tax £250 million pounds loss after paper disc withdrawn
• Unrecorded numbers of immigrants in the country
• Roads and infrastructure in state of disrepair.
• Steel industry in a state of no one knows what state it's in do they
• Economy run by an imbecile
• No merchant marine to speak of
• NHS being run down for sale
• Persecution of the poor in full swing
• Austerity... no we don't talk about that any more do we?
• Cameron's private wars all over the middle East still going on (but we don't know where or why)

No wonder throwing a bone to the public to chew on was considered a great idea.
What could possibles go wrong?

 

[BrendanJ]

"
Outrage at bid to 'rig' EU vote: Row as Cameron backs extending voters' deadline"
Both the Express and Mail came out with this quite incredible headline,which makes a mockery of the notion that they are serious newspapers, and does no credit to the idiots who responded with comments agreeing with this nonsense.
Anything, literally anything is used as Brexit propaganda when surely even the most mentally challenged voter realises that anything that maximises the number of votes cast is a victory for democracy,
But then, what have these two papers ever had to do with that?
And sure enough the usual comments of "Fix" appeared as expected.
No wonder the country ends up with the Governments it does.

What absolute Tosh, so the computer breaks down for two hours on people that left it to the very last moment, so you take your massive majority to vote in a law to allow an extra 2 days, knowing full well that this advantage your campaign
Sorry old groaner but now you really have lost the plot if you think that is democracy

 

[trex]

People should be allowed to vote if they are entitled to. If more young people want to register to vote, then it must be a good thing.

 

[oldgroaner]

What absolute Tosh, so the computer breaks down for two hours on people that left it to the very last moment, so you take your massive majority to vote in a law to allow an extra 2 days, knowing full well that this advantage your campaign
Sorry old groaner but now you really have lost the plot if you think that is democracy

It isn't me that has lost the plot, but you!
Tell me which is the more Democratic

• a Decision based and a small percentage of the population.
• a Decision based on the Majority of the Population.

There is no Logic in your response at all, and it smacks of panic.
The whole idea of the referendum is to get an emphatic answer from the Public , not the result of a minority vote!
And is the Brexit campaign so uncertain that an additional number of voters will skew the result?
You don't have much faith in your cause (assuming you support Brexit) and should be delighted to get a massive level of support from an increased number of voters.
Now tell me, just why will increasing the number of voters make the result go against you?
This is a Paranoid response to what is actually an opportunity to get a massive mandate and is quite simply nonsense.
And for the Record I fear that the Brexit side will win!
Ironic that someone who absolutely hates the idea has more faith than you apparently do, don't you think?
As I have said before, think before accepting the lies and distortions in the papers.

 

[BrendanJ]

It isn't me that has lost the plot, but you!
Tell me which is the more Democratic

• a Decision based and a small percentage of the population.
• a Decision based on the Majority of the Population.

There is no Logic in your response at all, and it smacks of panic.
The whole idea of the referendum is to get an emphatic answer from the Public , not the result of a minority vote!
And is the Brexit campaign so uncertain that an additional number of voters will skew the result?
You don't have much faith in your cause (assuming you support Brexit) and should be delighted to get a massive level of support from an increased number of voters.
Now tell me, just why will increasing the number of voters make the result go against you?
This is a Paranoid response to what is actually an opportunity to get a massive mandate and is quite simply nonsense.
And for the Record I fear that the Brexit side will win!
Ironic that someone who absolutely hates the idea has more faith than you apparently do, don't you think?
As I have said before, think before accepting the lies and distortions in the papers.

I won't bother reiterating the argument. It is clear for all to see, if they have there eyes open. Arguing a case one way or another is valuable until you hit up against people like you that have no capability to listen to reason and only wish to pounce on any event or information to trash another view
You fit your tag name well, did you choose it yourself (how bizarre)

 

[flecc]

Steady up guys, lets not get too personal.

I think the newspaper view is that it's most likely to be the young not registered, so getting more included increases their number. Since the young are thought to be more pro-remain, they see that as a remain fiddle.

However, even if it is, it's still better democracy to maximise the voting so you can both be right.
.

 

[damian]

What absolute Tosh, so the computer breaks down for two hours on people that left it to the very last moment, so you take your massive majority to vote in a law to allow an extra 2 days, knowing full well that this advantage your campaign
Sorry old groaner but now you really have lost the plot if you think that is democracy

Surely if people tried to register before the deadline and weren't able to because of circumstances beyond their control then something needs to be done to allow them to vote.
I think it'd be a pity if such an important decision was taken by a minority of the population.

What absolute Tosh, so the computer breaks down for two hours on people that left it to the very last moment, so you take your massive majority to vote in a law to allow an extra 2 days, knowing full well that this advantage your campaign
Sorry old groaner but now you really have lost the plot if you think that is democracy

Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk

 

[BrendanJ]

Thank you Flecc for articulating that balanced view.
However what I would say is
In an ideal world I agree that the more that vote the better, but changing the rules mid process which to me seems motivated not by democratic values but more about the wish to win at any cost is hardly correct, and remember Cameron has got track record I this campaign
Also remember I fully expect the vote to be very tight, so the stakes are high and such actions will only call into question. The validity of the result if the result is close
Which is clearly not a good thing
I also despair that Cameron's actions so far has all but guaranteed he will be thrown out after the election and probably shortly after we will be back to elections and probably even another referendum
What a mess

 

[trex]

I am looking forward to the ITV EU debate this evening.
Johnson should be pleased, he'll be the only man on the panel.
I often despair at watching old people interviewed by the TV presenters in pubs giving their reason to vote leave. It's not because they want to vote to leave, it's the range of given reasons why they vote to leave.

 

[flecc]

Thank you Flecc for articulating that balanced view.
However what I would say is
In an ideal world I agree that the more that vote the better, but changing the rules mid process which to me seems motivated not by democratic values but more about the wish to win at any cost is hardly correct, and remember Cameron has got track record I this campaign
Also remember I fully expect the vote to be very tight, so the stakes are high and such actions will only call into question. The validity of the result if the result is close
Which is clearly not a good thing
I also despair that Cameron's actions so far has all but guaranteed he will be thrown out after the election and probably shortly after we will be back to elections and probably even another referendum
What a mess

You're right it is a mess, and one that could get worse.

There are some fundamantal problems with this referendum and the way it's shaping up as a close decision. This is mainly due to the very high proportion of undecideds, inevitable in such a complex issue in which adequate facts about the future cannot exist.

In any such vote it's generally accepted that a very high turnout is desirable. However, a very high turnout means that a large proportion of the undecideds will take part, and that could slant the result for no good reason.

The problem with undecided people is that they will tend to take a perceived "safe" option, and that option naturally tends to be a "do nothing" one, meaning stay as we are.

So the turnout will be crucial and the large number of undecideds could well decide the outcome for no good reason. That makes this a very odd ballot indeed, one in which a low turnout with none of the undecideds taking part could produce the most honest, sensible and democratic result.

We live in weird times.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

You're right it is a mess, and one that could get worse.

There are some fundamantal problems with this referendum and the way it's shaping up as a close decision. This is mainly due to the very high proportion of undecideds, inevitable in such a complex issue in which adequate facts about the future cannot exist.

In any such vote it's generally accepted that a very high turnout is desirable. However, a very high turnout means that a large proportion of the undecideds will take part, and that could slant the result for no good reason.

The problem with undecided people is that they will tend to take a perceived "safe" option, and that option naturally tends to be a "do nothing" one, meaning stay as we are.

So the turnout will be crucial and the large number of undecideds could well decide the outcome for no good reason. That makes this a very odd ballot indeed, one in which a low turnout with none of the undecideds taking part could produce the most honest, sensible and democratic result.

We live in weird times.
.

It is possible that the high turnout is now made up of previously unmotivated, or can't be bothered to voters. So what now motivates them?
Anger is a strong motivator, but I would think this is less likely to be about the issues themselves that hardly got this attention at the election, but more about the campaign, the distortions and lies and deceptions which I believe most people have an instinct for especially the TV interviews
Thank god for that, he who lies most will be found out

 

[trex]

I would have thought that in a contest as close as this, a bigger participation is the only way to arrive to the right result. A narrow victory for one camp or the other will surely justify another referendum in a few year time, for example when Albania is allowed to join or when the brexit negociation is done.
As far as the reason for the late surge of registrants, I think it's down to the TV debates and the BBC reality check website. At the end, it will be the BBC that win the referendum for remain.

 

[BrendanJ]

At the end, it will be the BBC that win the referendum for remain.

How strange, have we been watching the same interviews ?

 

[trex]

yes, Brendan. I did see George squirm in his seat yesterday.
I follow the fortune of both sides and I think the BBC reality check website is the key to bring a victory, albeit narrow, to remain.
At the end of the day, people vote more with their wallet than their heart. A bird in hand is better than two in the bush.

 

[BrendanJ]

Question for you all?
This has so far been a very interesting debate covering a broad range of issues. Have any of you changed any of your views as a result and why?
And then has any of you a mind to change your decision on how to vote?
Just interested in how effective this thread has been as a process for debate and influence

 

[trex]

I don't pay much attention to career politicians, they all spin all the TV time they have been given. I use google to check facts and recently use the BBC reality check website. I originally intend to vote leave but may change my mind.

 

[oldgroaner]

I won't bother reiterating the argument. It is clear for all to see, if they have there eyes open. Arguing a case one way or another is valuable until you hit up against people like you that have no capability to listen to reason and only wish to pounce on any event or information to trash another view

You fit your tag name well, did you choose it yourself (how bizarre)

How very Amusing! first of all the name was given to me 30plus years ago when my teenage Daughter rolled in at 1;30 AM in the morning and I rather liked it, as it encapsulates very nicely the attitude that the young have when challenged by the old.
And you don't see the irony of a newspaper that hatches a conspiracy theory over extending a deadline for people to vote?
Are they not pouncing on any event or information to trash another view?
(Which you accuse me of, or am I not supposed to notice.)
And you let them convince you that indeed there is a plot to interfere with the results of the referendum?
Thus tarring you with the same brush.
And then in a later post than this one, you do concede it is better to have more people vote and more democratic .
Exactly as I (even though I apparently have no capacity to reason had worked out all on my own)
And finally My last comment is the rather sad observation that I expect the Brexit camp to win. (indicating that this dire plot you fear is in fact very unlikely to make the slightest bit of difference)
Largely because a large part of the population suffers from what I stand accused of
"people like you that have no capability to listen to reason and only wish to pounce on any event or information to trash another view"
Sums up the argument for Brexit neatly as a one liner.