Brexit, for once some facts.

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Agreed, but the end game of appallingly bad management by Greece. That long preceded any of the Greek debt related German and EU actions.
.

Agreed but if Greece could devalue currency they,d attract tourists ( forgetting migrant issue ffor a moment) and be in a much better position than austerity measures.

I just don't understand how any system could work expecting a wealthy country like Germany to sacrifice its living standard, earnt wuth hard work, excellent organisation and sacrifice , so that poorer countries within eu can enjoy same living standards. Its utopia and will never happen. Germany will give a bit, uk will a bit less. The eu will squander what's given and meanwhile Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain and to a lesser extent France will carry on regardless.
And that's where our Cultural differences come into it. France initiate rules and ignores every single one , as does Spain , Portugal and Greece. Hence the problem. Meanwhile us Brits take everything on board and follow everything. Watch workmen in France, all ours work boots, hard hats, high viss jackets. French in trainers, smoking and down tools at 12 for 2 hrs ( minimum) I,ve worked there. Its a nightmare.Use rules when it suits. Same in Spain and Italy ( and Jamaica but last I heard they ain't invited into eu, might as well tho. They have problems. EU might sort them if they asked nicely.

 

[trex]

you don't have to go back to the drachma to attract tourists. Cheap hotel rates will do nicely. Indeed, tourism in Greece grows at around 3.5% annually in recent years.

 

[Scimitar]

I happily concede that when Germany saw the way the Greek government were speding their earlier loans, they should have refused all further aid. That's more a matter for Germany though, the EU didn't lend this money, they only encourage or discourage it, so yes, they also should have discouraged it early.

Undoubtedly they both allowed the Greeks to dig themselves deep, but the Greeks did the digging.
.

Many years ago I said the same thing about the cheap money coming from the ECB and inflating the property bubble in Ireland. In my opinion, there should have been multi-tiered loan rates, with nobody outside of of governments getting the cheap money and only then when it was for useful infrastructure spending - roads, hospitals, schools, etc. It was an utter nonsense that banks in Ireland could borrow ultra-cheaply and lend at stupidly low rates to fuel the fires of the speculative housing building that was going on here.
I was in the middle of that, I could see it was going to crash eventually. Anyone who raised any doubts was targeted for vile abuse by the so-called 'leaders' of the ruling party, who turned out to be a shower of corrupt, inept, bumbling amateurs who behaved like fat kids at a burger party.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Many years ago I said the same thing about the cheap money coming from the ECB and inflating the property bubble in Ireland. In my opinion, there should have been multi-tiered loan rates, with nobody outside of of governments getting the cheap money and only then when it was for useful infrastructure spending - roads, hospitals, schools, etc. It was an utter nonsense that banks in Ireland could borrow ultra-cheaply and lend at stupidly low rates to fuel the fires of the speculative housing building that was going on here.
I was in the middle of that, I could see it was going to crash eventually. Anyone who raised any doubts was targeted for vile abuse by the so-called 'leaders' of the ruling party, who turned out to be a shower of corrupt, inept, bumbling amateurs who behaved like fat kids at a burger party.

That was about my feelings over Ireland but didn't like saying it so straight. There's many there now wishing it had been policed rather better.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

you don't have to go back to the drachma to attract tourists. Cheap hotel rates will do nicely. Indeed, tourism in Greece grows at around 3.5% annually in recent years.

Cheaper hotels than Spain ( or any other eu destination) is only possible of your currency is weaker than Spains. It cant be now. Tourism is growing but relative to other countries Gteece,s is in decline. There economy is shrinking at 2% pa.

 

[flecc]

Many years ago I said the same thing about the cheap money coming from the ECB and inflating the property bubble in Ireland. In my opinion, there should have been multi-tiered loan rates, with nobody outside of of governments getting the cheap money and only then when it was for useful infrastructure spending - roads, hospitals, schools, etc. It was an utter nonsense that banks in Ireland could borrow ultra-cheaply and lend at stupidly low rates to fuel the fires of the speculative housing building that was going on here.
I was in the middle of that, I could see it was going to crash eventually. Anyone who raised any doubts was targeted for vile abuse by the so-called 'leaders' of the ruling party, who turned out to be a shower of corrupt, inept, bumbling amateurs who behaved like fat kids at a burger party.

100% agree.
.

 

[flecc]

And that's where our Cultural differences come into it. France initiate rules and ignores every single one , as does Spain , Portugal and Greece. Hence the problem. Meanwhile us Brits take everything on board and follow everything. Watch workmen in France, all ours work boots, hard hats, high viss jackets. French in trainers, smoking and down tools at 12 for 2 hrs ( minimum) I,ve worked there. Its a nightmare.Use rules when it suits. Same in Spain and Italy

Indeed, and I would have put Italy in the lead, since they have always lived that way, including long before the EU.

But I see that being as much our problem as anything, our silly obsession with obedience to every tiny detail of regulation and maximum level enforcement. The UK's governments and citizens are far too uptight and really need to let go a little.

As for the 2 hour lunch, that's not a problem, they have the EU's 35 hour working week. We in the UK alone refused to accept that and negotiated an exception with 48 hours permitted. Just one of the many reasons I prefer to remain in the EU with its regard for the individual, rather than the contemptuous disregard of our own governments.
.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Indeed, and I would have put Italy in the lead, since they have always lived that way, including long before the EU.

But I see that being as much our problem as anything, our silly obsession with obedience to every tiny detail of regulation and maximum level enforcement. The UK's governments and citizens are far too uptight and really need to let go a little.

As for the 2 hour lunch, that's not a problem, they have the EU's 35 hour working week. We in the UK alone refused to accept that and negotiated an exception with 48 hours permitted. Just one of the many reasons I prefer to remain in the EU with its regard for the individual, rather than the contemptuous disregard of our own governments.
.

Well I suspect its regard for the individual in theory.
Two reasons.
Firstly any welfare for workers comes at a cost for business. Yes, workers should not be exploited but neither should they exploit. Its been my experience workers do more exploiting out of uk.
Secondly
Its my experience we enjoy higher security, equal if not better health care; safer roafds( albeit slower) , lower crime and generally a better standard of living than any of our eu counter parts.
Why is that if eu is so beneficial? My family has been robbed ( in car) twice and house robbed once, in last 10 years in South of France.. UK is safer, despite all the media saying otherwise.
All this is not by accident. UK is settled. EU seems not. Also, if you think UK racist stay here. I,ve come home because of these reasons and for government caused business problems.
The less we have to do with eu, the better. But ,I,ll accept I,m bias but for real experienced reasons.Nothing to do with reading Mail,which I don't.

 

[flecc]

Its my experience we enjoy:

equal if not better health care: I don't agree, I can get far faster and better treatment for many conditions in France for example. The NHS has many failings, two of which I've suffered and won't forget.

safer roads( albeit slower) : Agreed, but subject to the grossly excessive law that I complain of

lower crime: But at the cost of a ridiculously high and expensive prison population and far too many wrongly convicted. Even the Home Office who run the system so have a vested interest in saying everything's perfect admit to some 3000 innocent people in prison. Independent organisations and some senior lawyers believe it much higher

generally a better standard of living than any of our eu counter parts: Not so, Germany, The Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark at least have higher overall living standards. Their benefits and welfare systems ensure that. The EU 35 hour standard working week is also a higher living standard than our 48 hour limit.
.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

equal if not better health care: I don't agree, I can get far faster and better treatment for many conditions in France for example. The NHS has many failings, two of which I've suffered and won't forget.

safer roads( albeit slower) : Agreed, but subject to the grossly excessive law that I complain of

lower crime: But at the cost of a ridiculously high and expensive prison population and far too many wrongly convicted. Even the Home Office who run the system so have a vested interest in saying everything's perfect admit to some 3000 innocent people in prison. Independent organisations and some senior lawyers believe it much higher

generally a better standard of living than any of our eu counter parts: Not so, Germany, The Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark at least have higher overall living standards. Their benefits and welfare systems ensure that. The EU 35 hour standard working week is also a higher living standard than our 48 hour limit.
.

I was speaking of EU in general, not cherry picking specific places.
As for getting better health care in France, its not been my experience. Far from it.
But agreed there are places within eu enjoying higher standard of living but its not typical of EU in general.
If what you say was true I,d still be there. There,s an awful lot of rose tinted glasses worn looking at eu.

 

[flecc]

I was speaking of EU in general, not cherry picking specific places.
As for getting better health care in France, its not been my experience. Far from it.
But agreed there are places within eu enjoying higher standard of living but its not typical of EU in general.
If what you say was true I,d still be there. There,s an awful lot of rose tinted glasses worn looking at eu.

It was your saying "any of our EU counterparts" in respect of living standards that I challenged of course.

As for French medical treatment, it's fact that many Britons cross the channel for prompt and better treatment for a variety of conditions. Often faced with months of delay here, they commonly get treatment within a couple of weeks in France.

No rose tinted specs looking at the EU with me, it doesn't exist as an entity to look at. I just look at the individual countries and judge their widely differing autonomous situations.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

generally a better standard of living than any of our eu counter parts
.

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/statistics-and-causes-of-the-obesity-epidemic-in-the-UK.aspx

Yeah right...

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Go live in Gteece, Northern Spain, Southern France and see what you think. I,ve tried. It ain't what folk make it out to be.
As for health tourism. Think you,ll find it goes both ways.
And if you think UK is so poor in many respects, why on eatth assume it will be better 10 years down line remaining in EU ??? Like I,ve said before eu has bigger problems than ours to tackle.
Kiwi
Yes we are overweight aren't we?????

 

[flecc]

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/statistics-and-causes-of-the-obesity-epidemic-in-the-UK.aspx

Yeah right...

This was from Flud's post, not mine:

generally a better standard of living than any of our eu counter parts

In blue because I quoted that to answer it, disagreeing with him that UK standard of living was higher.

Obesity is very much a western world wide problem though.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

Just watched Osbourne on the TVs,
He was completely demolished, all credibility gone
The trouble with exaggerating, lieing deceiving, a skilled interrogator will always find you out.
Shamefull but encouraging, when the public smell a rat then watch out

 

[flecc]

Go live in Gteece, Northern Spain, Southern France and see what you think. I,ve tried. It ain't what folk make it out to be.

You keep doing this, selecting a few southern examples. I'm not arguing against that and wouldn't do. In any case, the EU has 28 member countries, not the 3 or 4 you keep highlighting. The great majority are doing fine, which is why they keep the EU going and so obviously resent the British attitude.
.

 

[flecc]

Just watched Osbourne on the TVs,
He was completely demolished, all credibility gone
The trouble with exaggerating, lieing deceiving, a skilled interrogator will always find you out.
Shamefull but encouraging, when the public smell a rat then watch out

Exactly the same as what happened when Boris Johnson faced the same a little while ago. A Brexiter and another possible future prime minister!
.

 

[BrendanJ]

Exactly the same as what happened when Boris Johnson faced the same a little while ago. A Brexiter and another possible future prime minister!
.

Neither of those two will ever be prime minister, they are both stalking horses either through lies or arrogance, or just plain stupid
The next prime minister is quietly waiting in the wings, shamefully really but that's politics nowadays
When will we find the leader with conviction, courage, integrity and true leadership instead of masters of the sound bite, appealing to the vote statistics,, and vested interest
I am not a idealist and suppose these come along only once in a generation (if your lucky) but by god we need one now

 

[flecc]

Neither of those two will ever be prime minister, they are both stalking horses either through lies or arrogance, or just plain stupid

I'm not so confident, the Conservatives are well aware of Boris Johnson's appeal to the wider public and are likely to adopt him for that reason alone. They know he could win them a close election, just as he won two tory mayorships in labour London.

I'd rather have Jeremy Corbyn as PM, but the chances of that are quite slim with his own parliamentary party undermining him.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

I'm not so confident, the Conservatives are well aware of Boris Johnson's appeal to the wider public and are likely to adopt him for that reason alone. They know he could win them a close election, just as he won two tory mayorships in labour London.

I'd rather have Jeremy Corbyn as PM, but the chances of that are quite slim with his own parliamentary party undermining him.
.

The strange thing is the majority of the Tory party want to stay in, but as you say they would go along with Boris as leader. I don't deny your suggestion but it raises a lot of questions about motivation, politics in general, and just were this campaign is going. Indeed it was born of internal Tory politics and maybe that really is what is driving it still, not much to do with Europe?