Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Ok it wasn't about length of posts. I withdraw my apology, it was your predictable irrelevant rambling I was referring to.
I happily concede that when Germany saw the way the Greek government were speding their earlier loans, they should have refused all further aid. That's more a matter for Germany though, the EU didn't lend this money, they only encourage or discourage it, so yes, they also should have discouraged it early.
Undoubtedly they both allowed the Greeks to dig themselves deep, but the Greeks did the digging.
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I agree, their frequent diversions into military government was a large part of that of course, and it still influences the thinking and spending of their goverements since.
As for who's responsible, my previous answer applies.
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Thanks for the apology Flud accepted with thanks and I plead guilty as charged to being long winded.(and ask for several hundred other cases to be taken in consideration) Make allowances please for that.
In the immortal words of John Cleese
"Try to understand before one of us dies"
Which is most likely to be me of course!
Greece's problem is one for the Eurozone and Tsipras' goverment has always had the choice to go back to the drachma. They chose to keep the Euro, reformed their pension and increased their taxes. Now they are on the mend.
As many people have already pointed out, even communist Greeks don't want to leave the Eurozone.
We should really keep the distinction between the Eurozone and the EU. The Eurozone countries are moving toward a federal state while the rest of the EU does not. Brexiters try hard to merge the two, I don't think that does their credibility much good.
As many people have already pointed out, even communist Greeks don't want to leave the Eurozone.
We should really keep the distinction between the Eurozone and the EU. The Eurozone countries are moving toward a federal state while the rest of the EU does not. Brexiters try hard to merge the two, I don't think that does their credibility much good.
Under full European Fiscal & Political union then the debts of one is the debts of all. One of the reasons that Germany has benefited so dramatically is common Euro and interest rates set by the Central bank (In Germany, by Germans, for germans) with such a massive funding they needed to park it somewhere. Rollup for some loans Greece.
Just like the irresponsible banks loaning to high risk debtors they must now take some responsibility and take a hit. "Right them off", give Greece a lifeline and hope, and show some moral courage if indeed they claim to lead the Union.
They were in receipt of HUGE funding after the war without which they had no chance.
They did the same for eastern Europe at reunification, which I commend, but they could rationalise they were indeed helping Germans
If they TRULY believe in Europe as one people, one state then start acting like it, The behaviour has to come first and the reality later
Thet didn't have a problem when they joined the EU, nor did Portugal or Ireland. Instead they enjoyed a boom due to membership and loved being in.
It was what they did then that has caused their problems, not in any way what the EU did Ireland woke up to it's foolishness and acted to correct it. The others didn't.
It's that background that counts, not the outcome such as what's happening in Athens. Tha's no more relevant to EU membership than our Poll Tax Riots and recent multi-city riots. All were caused by national government actions.
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No problems. Ignore my anti post. I,ll delete it.
Issue does provoke high emotion...its important ...
Take care.
No, that's not true. It will become true when political union is achieved and the core EU is one country.
At present EU countries individually lend and borrow money, and bear debts alone. That's why it was Germany that specified the recent harsher rules for the Greeks, not the EU, though the EU naturally agreed.
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you don't hear much about Greece recently because of EU referendum. Tsipras' goverment has implemented 95% of the conditions for the bailout program. Only 5% to go. The ECB will release the next tranche of funding some time next week. If you look at unemplyment rate, it has already begun to drop for a year now. Don't underestimate the power of the Eurozone countries.
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They are aiming for political union and they are enforcing rules accordingly. They have to take fiscal responsibility in case of these hardships, and frankly EU / Germany, they are in affect the same thing in all but name
Not sure about that .. Athens riots are mire or less attributable to eu sanctions, its end game of bad management by Greece ; Germany and EU..
Would they be happening if Greece was outside EU, hypothetical I suppose.
It does highlight a few things tho.
A) Greeks refusal to change and bad policies.
B) Germany,s lack of understanding of situation. And their motives?? Why unilateral help ??? They had motives, which we don't need to go into.
C) The EU,s inability to help or prevent.
The eu ( in current guise) is extremely biased toward more powerful counties benefitting, which I'd bound to be case with either common currency or market.
As part of EU uk will always be a part player but net provider. Second to Germany,s wealth.
With reference to Ireland, their boom was property lead provoked by eu cash. Folk in Ireland thought it would last forever.Folk were made millionaires over night but the bubble burst. The Irish I,ve spoken to are quite cynical about it all,and suspect they were bought into common currency. Yes, different situation, not as severe as Greece, but certainly hardly an argument for eu or common currency.
I believe parts of Ireland saw largest boom and bust house price range in Europe. They have settled now but way below prices if 07..Uk prices now more ir less recovered. French still way down.. Not seen figures but I,d guess France has largest unoccupied house market in Europe. Its massive, but never mentioned. Again , only an indicator of a countries' financial position but I certainly wouldn't want money invested in France,stay or leave. And France is one of richer in eu.
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You don't hear much because the EU doesn't want you to hear. The last tranch of loans to pay off the last lot is simply pushing it into the long grass to avoid affecting the referendum, same as the new Budget announcement, The Euro army proposals, the Kettle regulations
And if you think Greece is improving why don't you stand in the middle of Athens with a placard around your neck saying what a good job the EU is doing for Greece.
I was greatly saddened by what the Germans did to Greece. even the IMF detests this action. Greece as we already know are a basket case and simply did not have the courage to go alone, or the confidence that Europe would still help them to a softer landing outside the Europe
If there is one single event and policy that has convinced me to vote Brexit this is the one, not immigration, not economics, not sovereignty.
But the immoral actions of those that would lead us.
let's continue this conversation same time next year. I've seen the list of conditions that Tsipras goverment has to deliver. It's bitter medecine alright but it's medecine nevertheless.
Agreed, but the end game of appallingly bad management by Greece. That long preceded any of the Greek debt related German and EU actions.
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