Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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Would you not agree that there are absolutes.. how many triangles have you seen with 4 sides, irrespective of the planes of reference, does the concept of absolute zero on the temperature scale not have universal applicability.. otherwise our belief in the big bang theory goes bang... Do not the spectrum lines of any element occupy the same relative spacing, otherwise our whole theory of astronomy goes out the window. These are truths and we base our entire sciences of physics chemistry and the applied sciences of biology, geosciences on the systematic application of these observations. If and when observations arise which are in conflict with preconceived notions, we then, don't believe in magic, but we decide experiments in order to isolate the parameters of the new phenomenon. There would be no point in so doing unless the science community believed that the universe is understandable and obeys fundamental objective truths.
In your experiences in thermodynamics, I am surmising that while you believed there were fundamental forces at work, the complexity of the energy exchanges, defeated your ( and presumably others) competence to model them adaquately. Otherwise you would have got different results every time you ran a calculation or an experiment.
Experts?who need 'em?
Nowt can beat a simple observation tha' nose

The logic that gave the World Brexit
 
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oldtom

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I have never seen any universal truth, besides the human intuitive sense of right and wrong.
There is probably some right and wrong and maybe even a universal truth in this sketch which we could watch and discuss. Alternatively, and a better idea might be we just watch and consider that British society has never really changed since the 1960s.

Brainwashed into accepting a society structured in a particular way instead of believing it could and should be different. That is why Britain has been left behind by other more industrious and determined nations in the modern era. The two characters on the left in the sketch are of the classes responsible for both Britain's demise and the other character's poverty.

640x360_7916818072980074981.mp4

Tom
 
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Woosh

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Would you not agree that there are absolutes.. how many triangles have you seen with 4 sides, irrespective of the planes of reference.
I left uni in 1975 so my knowledge of maths, physics and chemistry is dated as of that time.
Still, triangles are a definition, agreed between people who study Euclidean geometry. If you go one step further and assume that you only have curves between two points in space and/or your space has more than 3 dimensions then the triangle as we know it can't be defined in the same way. The way physics has developed in my time, it is very likely that we have more dimensions than space time.

does the concept of absolute zero on the temperature scale not have universal applicability.
Yes and no. This absolute zero is also an agreed hypothesis in thermodynamics based on our definition of enthalpy and entropy. We don't know for sure the structure of matter and what kinds of energy are left in matter at zero Kelvin. The science is still too young. One day we'll discover new subatomic particles and new fields that encompass the Higgs field, then the current theory on entropy, enthalpy will have to evolve.

Do not the spectrum lines of any element occupy the same relative spacing, otherwise our whole theory of astronomy goes out the window.
this is only partially true, the lines vary with the atomic mass of the elements. I take it that you talk about spectra of hydrogen and elements that don't have isotopes. Further, they are only repeatable when acceleration is not present in your frame of reference, which restrict that 'truth' to earth-bound measurements.

In your experiences in thermodynamics, I am surmising that while you believed there were fundamental forces at work, the complexity of the energy exchanges, defeated your ( and presumably others) competence to model them adaquately. Otherwise you would have got different results every time you ran a calculation or an experiment.
the complexity of real systems will make everyone realize how little equipped we are to study these things, so we postulate and assume to simplify the number of variables, therefore we know in advance that whatever conclusion we come up with, the result of our experiments cannot be the whole truth.
 

oldgroaner

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Dammit, why did I waste so many years. Studying when the truth was that obvious.. lovely
My feelings exactly.
Unfortunately education, no matter how individually enlightening ,is inadequate to protect us from carefully orchestrated mass manipulation of the public into making harmful decisions that affect us all.
What is lacking is some form of social education as to the expectation and responsibilities of citizenship, sadly lacking in this country.
 
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Danidl

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I left uni in 1975 so my knowledge of maths, physics and chemistry is dated as of that time.
Still, triangles are a definition, agreed between people who study Euclidean geometry. If you go one step further and assume that you only have curves between two points in space and/or your space has more than 3 dimensions then the triangle as we know it can't be defined in the same way. The way physics has developed in my time, it is very likely that we have more dimensions than space time.



Yes and no. This absolute zero is also an agreed hypothesis in thermodynamics based on our definition of enthalpy and entropy. We don't know for sure the structure of matter and what kinds of energy are left in matter at zero Kelvin. The science is still too young. One day we'll discover new subatomic particles and new fields that encompass the Higgs field, then the current theory on entropy, enthalpy will have to evolve.



this is only partially true, the lines vary with the atomic mass of the elements. I take it that you talk about spectra of hydrogen and elements that don't have isotopes. Further, they are only repeatable when acceleration is not present in your frame of reference, which restrict that 'truth' to earth-bound measurements.


the complexity of real systems will make everyone realize how little equipped we are to study these things, so we postulate and assume to simplify the number of variables, therefore we know in advance that whatever conclusion we come up with, the result of our experiments cannot be the whole truth.
My point is about there being absolutes. Agreed the triangle is an agreed definition, which then allows an entire logic structure to be built in it.
My point about absolute zero as a thermodynamic concept, does provide the validity for the 4K radio noise, and is independent of any internal atomic mechanisms which may require the concept to be further refined, not modified but refined e.g getting closer to a truth. Remember that absolute zero was an experimental measurement before it was a theoretical construct.
My choice of atomic spectra, was made in the knowledge that it encompassed both pure uncompressed gases, high pressure gases, isotopes, Doppler and gravitational shifts and multiple elements, all of which give us objective tools to investigate the universe.
I would agree with you about the difficulties of modelling even relatively simple systems, let alone those we find in the real world. You might however be pleasantly surprised by the advances in computational modelling of physical systems over the last few decades.. not my area, but for instance the reason why nuclear test ban treaties, have been successful is because the modelling of yields had become so accurate.
My point, which I am unwilling to concede easily is that there are objective truths, and by science we get a glimpse of some of these and we make ourselves closer and closer to these by intelligent experimenation.
 
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Woosh

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My point, which I am unwilling to concede easily is that there are objective truths, and by science we get a glimpse of some of these and we make ourselves closer and closer to these by intelligent experimenation.
the problem with physics as an exact science is that we are physically earth bound while our imagination is not. It becomes clearer by the day that different regions of space may have different physical laws, different elements and possibly different atomic and subatomic particles.
if there is a universal truth in science then that is likely this postulate: the more I study, the less I know.
 

Steb

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I left uni in 1975 so my knowledge of maths, physics and chemistry is dated as of that time.
Still, triangles are a definition, agreed between people who study Euclidean geometry. If you go one step further and assume that you only have curves between two points in space and/or your space has more than 3 dimensions then the triangle as we know it can't be defined in the same way. The way physics has developed in my time, it is very likely that we have more dimensions than space time.



Yes and no. This absolute zero is also an agreed hypothesis in thermodynamics based on our definition of enthalpy and entropy. We don't know for sure the structure of matter and what kinds of energy are left in matter at zero Kelvin. The science is still too young. One day we'll discover new subatomic particles and new fields that encompass the Higgs field, then the current theory on entropy, enthalpy will have to evolve.



this is only partially true, the lines vary with the atomic mass of the elements. I take it that you talk about spectra of hydrogen and elements that don't have isotopes. Further, they are only repeatable when acceleration is not present in your frame of reference, which restrict that 'truth' to earth-bound measurements.


the complexity of real systems will make everyone realize how little equipped we are to study these things, so we postulate and assume to simplify the number of variables, therefore we know in advance that whatever conclusion we come up with, the result of our experiments cannot be the whole truth.
I'm no physicist, but in the spirit of being profound, doesn't occam's razor cover this aspect of life for carbon based life forms in this dimension?
 
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Steb

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I'm no physicist, but in the spirit of being profound, doesn't occam's razor cover this aspect of life for carbon based life forms in this dimension?
just count the number of assumptions one has to make to support brexit as a hypothesis..
 
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Woosh

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I'm no physicist, but in the spirit of being profound, doesn't occam's razor cover this aspect of life for carbon based life forms in this dimension?
no. Occam's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) is appealing to the mind but has no scientific basis.
Empirical evidence is useful but cannot replace reasoning.
 

Woosh

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just count the number of assumptions one has to make to support brexit as a hypothesis..
the assumptions are not that many:

1. 1% of GDP in gross contribution to EU budget
2. The ever expanding role of the ECJ hurts our national pride
3. We cannot stop EU citizens to come and settle here
4. The EU is going to become the united states of Europe
 

Steb

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no. Occam's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) is appealing to the mind but has no scientific basis.
Empirical evidence is useful but cannot replace reasoning.
well, at least I can now see how you came to support brexit...however,all paradigms are at heart phenomenological, all research is qualitative at first (i. e. phenomenological explication) and so everything begins with making human experience explicit. Even socratic reasoning was phenomenological.
 
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Steb

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the assumptions are not that many:

1. 1% of GDP in gross contribution to EU budget
2. The ever expanding role of the ECJ hurts our national pride
3. We cannot stop EU citizens to come and settle here
4. The EU is going to become the united states of Europe
er, those are not 'assumptions', i. e. premises, they are highly emotive, ideological biases. It's the equivalent of saying 'the moons made of cheese because I really like cheese'
 
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Woosh

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well, at least I can now see how you came to support brexit...however,all paradigms are at heart phenomenological, all research is qualitative at first (i. e. phenomenological explication) and so everything begins with making human experience explicit. Even socratic reasoning was phenomenological.
we've gone some way from that qualitative > quantitative approach.
A. Einstein used thought experiments, not to explain observable phenomena, but his maths. So he built the theory first and imagine how it can be tested.
Einstein method is used a lot nowadays.
 

Woosh

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er, those are not 'assumptions', i. e. premises, they are highly emotive, ideological biases. It's the equivalent of saying 'the moons made of cheese because I really like cheese'
they are assumptions in the sense that the EU can change the rate of contribution, the role of the ECJ, the freedom of movement and whether it wants to build a superstate. At the moment, those are reasonable near term projections.
 

Steb

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we've gone some way from that qualitative > quantitative approach.
A. Einstein used thought experiments, not to explain observable phenomena, but his maths. So he built the theory first and imagine how it can be tested.
Einstein method is used a lot nowadays.
phenomenology remains the necessary connection between theory and experiment. Take dirac's equation which become the Pauli's equation in the phenomenology of coupling electrons in a magnetic field. Thought experiments are a starting point for what needs to be explicated.
 
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Steb

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they are assumptions in the sense that the EU can change the rate of contribution, the role of the ECJ, the freedom of movement and whether it wants to build a superstate. At the moment, those are reasonable near term projections.
no. 'the ecj hurt our national pride' is a nutty jingoistic bias that the sun would no doubt love to print on its front page. A premise - i.e. approximately valid proposition about reality - it emphatically is not.
 
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Danidl

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the problem with physics as an exact science is that we are physically earth bound while our imagination is not. It becomes clearer by the day that different regions of space may have different physical laws, different elements and possibly different atomic and subatomic particles.
if there is a universal truth in science then that is likely this postulate: the more I study, the less I know.
Yes we are earth bound but with a boundless appetite
.. Is there any evidence that the laws of physics are different else where? There well may be additional elements like the unobtainium needed for the voyage to the centre of the earth... But likely also to be composed of neutrons and protons. There well may be additional effects which because of their weak forces , may matter over the enormous distances, but are not evident on earth. ... All of these are potentially exciting.

The more one knows, the more one realises that there is more to know...
 
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Woosh

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Take dirac's equation which become the Pauli's equation in the phenomenology of coupling electrons in a magnetic field.
I learned Schroedinger's first, then Pauli's, then Dirac's in that order.
I must say I have never paid much attention to any history connecting these three, just three sets of equations/theories in the same module following the increase in complexity and applicable scope. Dirac's is the most comprehensive and the most recent of the three.
 

Woosh

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. Is there any evidence that the laws of physics are different else where?
the evidence seems to mount.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19429-laws-of-physics-may-change-across-the-universe/

the reason for it: the theory of relativity has evolved a lot since A. Einstein created it. It is possible that the laws of physics changed with space time.
I mentioned the Higgs field in a previous post, it's possible that Higgs constant and Planck's changed with space time.
 

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