Brexit, for once some facts.

Danidl

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Finland is a case in point. Finland joins EFTA since 1986.

We would fit better with EFTA that does not seek to enlarge like the EU.

This is a quote from the Guardian a couple of weeks ago:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/02/uk-shortcut-free-trade-post-brexit

Efta, set up in 1960, consists of Switzerland, Norway, Lichtenstein and Iceland.

A report by the Swiss thinktank Foraus published this week argues that by joining Efta as an associate member in the manner of Finland, the UK would have access to its valuable free trade deals but would be able to avoid the EU’s rules on free movement. “It would allow the UK to preserve a status quo in non-EU trade, instead of starting from scratch” said Cenni Najy, a Foraus research fellow. “The natural house of Britain is Efta.”
If membership of EFTA was such a good idea, would you not think that it would been touted before now and by major Brexit supporters?.
From a cursory glance at its website, it seems to have all the drawbacks of EU membership, from a Brexit supporter viewpoint, and none of the advantages of EU membership from a remainers perspective.

As an aside, they , EFTA, argue as a plus that they are expandable as membership of the EU helps increase their size
 
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Woosh

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And it is still only a Fudge and unacceptable on the grounds of none of the advantages of membership of the EU on the rights, working conditions, and the Environment we currently have.
This is an interview with Carl Baudenbacher, a judge working at the EFTA court, in which, he demystified the issues if the UK wanted to join an alternative grouping. A recent poll favours EFTA to the EU by a very large margin.

Can Britain sign its own trade deals if it joins Efta?

The EEA is not a customs union, the EEA is an enhanced free trade agreement which means that our three members, Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway, have retained their full sovereignty in free trade matters with the rest of the world.

If they cannot agree as a group of four as EFTA, with Switzerland, each EFTA member has the right to go it alone and agree their own individual free trade agreements.

There are agreements which are concluded by EFTA together and agreements that are concluded by individual EFTA States. There is utmost flexibility when it comes to that.

Are there any differences in how free movement works between Efta and full EU members?

There may be a difference there, probably. We have some sort of a safeguard clause which is a bit more favourable to the EFTA States than in the European Union. It also goes far, but there are now proposals [to reform free movement].

Are there other notable differences between being in Efta and being in the EU?

Our countries have also kept their sovereignty in the area of agriculture and of fisheries. In fisheries, which are extremely important for both Iceland and Norway, there is a very favourable fish protocol that allows them to keep the catch and to sell in the European Union.

What are the biggest economic advantages to Britain joining Efta?

Passporting is something else that will be an advantage for the UK, for the City of London, because under the EEA Agreement you have the same passporting rights because you are in the single market.

Switzerland doesn’t have passporting rights for its banks and insurance companies. It’s very costly for them so what the Swiss insurance companies have done is to set up subsidiaries in Liechtenstein.

And would having access to the Efta court be good for British business?

You have to have a court. And clearly the EFTA Court is more appropriate than a national supreme court because it’s a multi-lateral court and it has the recognition of the ECJ.

You must also have access for your industry to a court. The biggest danger for industry is often not from foreign governments but from one’s own government, for example, by giving State aid to certain firms etc.

So what is the main political difference between Efta and the EU?

In the EEA we don’t have the goal of ‘an ever closer Union’ and we don’t have grand visions, we are rather down to earth. At the end of the day the EEA Agreement is about market economy and free movement of production factors.

We don’t have the political concept of EU citizenship, no political rights. Movement of workers, self-employed persons, and right of establishment, yes, but no voting rights and the like.

If Britain joins Efta, will it still need to submit itself to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice?

The EFTA Court is a fully independent court, there are no links to the ECJ. We stand on our own feet. As regards law on the books, we are bound to follow the ECJ’s pre-1992 case law.

That set the level playing-field across the Single Market. But as regards law in action they also follow us in many, many cases. They have followed us, so this imagined one-way street has developed in practice into a judicial dialogue.

Judging is not an exact science and to have your own people on the separate independent court has turned out to be an advantage for the EFTA States.

And what do you think Britain would add as a member of the Efta court?

I have seen British judges and British advocates general on the ECJ for 20 years now and I have always been impressed by the quality of their work and by their independence, by their legal skills, by their knowledge, by their fairness.

That is by the way what I fear most for the Union, that if the British influence disappears there will be insufficient common law thinking in the Union.

We have been able to maintain EFTA values in our case law and if a British judge were here obviously this would give us more weight. In our way of thinking we are already close to the common law way of thinking.

Finally, what do you think will happen during the Brexit negotiations?

There’s a lot of noise but at the end of the day the EU has zero interest in snubbing the Brits, zero, for historic reasons, for military reasons, for all sorts of reasons and I keep saying in all my speeches if the EU does not give the Brits a certain influence on legislation it will shoot itself in the foot because there are just fields where they know it better, competition policy is such an issue.
 
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oldgroaner

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"The European Economic Area (EEA) unites the EU Member States and the three EEA EFTA States (Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway) into an Internal Market governed by the same basic rules. These rules aim to enable goods, services, capital, and persons to move freely about the EEA in an open and competitive environment, a concept referred to as the four freedoms."

Brexit isn't Brexit if we join this is it? the Government hope to join this and then Break the rules..if they do they will get thrown out and trade with the EU stopped in it's tracks
 
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oldtom

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The attached article describes how people were lied to in the 1930s yet today, people are still being lied to by politicians but they seem either incapable of understanding that fact or are entirely supportive of those politicians who lie.

The invention of 'Brexit' was never about getting a better deal for the British people; it was simply a vehicle designed to garner support from working-class and poor people by fascist politicians and multi-millionaires much further to the right than the mainstream tory party. Those evil people knew very well that there are quite a few in the right wing of the tory party too who, disenchanted by a leadership they consider too centrist, would hastily nail their colours to the UKIP mast by announcing their support for 'Brexit'.

UKIP may since have all but disappeared from the political horizon but the fascists are still with us, driven now by a tory party that does not understand how to prise itself out of the mess it got itself into but desperate to cling on to power whatever the cost to the country.

All the promises from 2010 and 2015 have been broken; that's not only tory government policies but also many made by the Mayor of London, the buffoon, Johnson.

Still, however, in spite of spiralling national debt, this government continues with its vanity projects while austerity remains the order of the day for the masses. Only those whose tax matters are dealt with under PAYE suffer that austerity in a punitive way. Moreover, there are still many who cannot see the forest for the trees and continue to speculate about this or that type of 'Brexit' and how EFTA or WTO membership is so much better than the EU for the UK. It is my view that any form of secession from the EU may well create some kind of utopia for British billionaires, the few, but for the many it will be a dystopian disaster.

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2017/08/18/for-anyone-who-still-insists-nazis-were-socialists-read-this-and-shut-up/

Tom
 
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Woosh

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Brexit isn't Brexit if we join this is it? the Government hope to join this and then Break the rules..if they do they will get thrown out and trade with the EU stopped in it's tracks
you are wrong on this. EFTA does not want political union, it's only a free trade zone, that's what the brexiters want. The only opponents to us joining EFTA are those fanatics on both sides (a poll estimates the opponents to EFTA count for about 29% of the votes)
EFTA court is obliged to accept pre-1992 ECJ case laws but not later.
 
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oldgroaner

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This is an interview with Carl Baudenbacher, a judge working at the EFTA court. In which, he demystify the issues if the UK wanted to join an alternative grouping. A recent poll favours EFTA to the EU by a very large margin.

Can Britain sign its own trade deals if it joins Efta?

The EEA is not a customs union, the EEA is an enhanced free trade agreement which means that our three members, Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway, have retained their full sovereignty in free trade matters with the rest of the world.

If they cannot agree as a group of four as EFTA, with Switzerland, each EFTA member has the right to go it alone and agree their own individual free trade agreements.

There are agreements which are concluded by EFTA together and agreements that are concluded by individual EFTA States. There is utmost flexibility when it comes to that.

Are there any differences in how free movement works between Efta and full EU members?

There may be a difference there, probably. We have some sort of a safeguard clause which is a bit more favourable to the EFTA States than in the European Union. It also goes far, but there are now proposals [to reform free movement].

Are there other notable differences between being in Efta and being in the EU?

Our countries have also kept their sovereignty in the area of agriculture and of fisheries. In fisheries, which are extremely important for both Iceland and Norway, there is a very favourable fish protocol that allows them to keep the catch and to sell in the European Union.

What are the biggest economic advantages to Britain joining Efta?

Passporting is something else that will be an advantage for the UK, for the City of London, because under the EEA Agreement you have the same passporting rights because you are in the single market.

Switzerland doesn’t have passporting rights for its banks and insurance companies. It’s very costly for them so what the Swiss insurance companies have done is to set up subsidiaries in Liechtenstein.

And would having access to the Efta court be good for British business?

You have to have a court. And clearly the EFTA Court is more appropriate than a national supreme court because it’s a multi-lateral court and it has the recognition of the ECJ.

You must also have access for your industry to a court. The biggest danger for industry is often not from foreign governments but from one’s own government, for example, by giving State aid to certain firms etc.

So what is the main political difference between Efta and the EU?

In the EEA we don’t have the goal of ‘an ever closer Union’ and we don’t have grand visions, we are rather down to earth. At the end of the day the EEA Agreement is about market economy and free movement of production factors.

We don’t have the political concept of EU citizenship, no political rights. Movement of workers, self-employed persons, and right of establishment, yes, but no voting rights and the like.

If Britain joins Efta, will it still need to submit itself to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice?

The EFTA Court is a fully independent court, there are no links to the ECJ. We stand on our own feet. As regards law on the books, we are bound to follow the ECJ’s pre-1992 case law.

That set the level playing-field across the Single Market. But as regards law in action they also follow us in many, many cases. They have followed us, so this imagined one-way street has developed in practice into a judicial dialogue.

Judging is not an exact science and to have your own people on the separate independent court has turned out to be an advantage for the EFTA States.

And what do you think Britain would add as a member of the Efta court?

I have seen British judges and British advocates general on the ECJ for 20 years now and I have always been impressed by the quality of their work and by their independence, by their legal skills, by their knowledge, by their fairness.

That is by the way what I fear most for the Union, that if the British influence disappears there will be insufficient common law thinking in the Union.

We have been able to maintain EFTA values in our case law and if a British judge were here obviously this would give us more weight. In our way of thinking we are already close to the common law way of thinking.

Finally, what do you think will happen during the Brexit negotiations?

There’s a lot of noise but at the end of the day the EU has zero interest in snubbing the Brits, zero, for historic reasons, for military reasons, for all sorts of reasons and I keep saying in all my speeches if the EU does not give the Brits a certain influence on legislation it will shoot itself in the foot because there are just fields where they know it better, competition policy is such an issue.
Well that was interesting, as the author managed to contradict the EFTA policy on the four freedoms for a start
"There may be a difference there, probably. We have some sort of a safeguard clause which is a bit more favourable to the EFTA States than in the European Union. It also goes far, but there are now proposals [to reform free movement].
Sorry but this is a LIE they subscribe to the Four Freedoms

Then it admits the following
"We don’t have the political concept of EU citizenship, no political rights. Movement of workers, self-employed persons, and right of establishment, yes, but no voting rights and the like.

So to hell with human rights

And what happened to independence from Foreign courts?
"The EFTA Court is a fully independent court, there are no links to the ECJ. We stand on our own feet. As regards law on the books, we are bound to follow the ECJ’s pre-1992 case law.

That goes against the Brexit fundamental,just swops oe foreign court for another taking back control? No way!

And this
"In the EEA we don’t have the goal of ‘an ever closer Union’ and we don’t have grand visions, we are rather down to earth. At the end of the day the EEA Agreement is about market economy and free movement of production factors..

Cameron negotiated out of "Ever closer union"

Goodbye to London!
"Switzerland doesn’t have passporting rights for its banks and insurance companies. It’s very costly for them so what the Swiss insurance companies have done is to set up subsidiaries in Liechtenstein."

Bloody hell who in their right mind would sign up this Dogs Breakfast?
I guess you can count me among the fanatics that oppose this idea

 
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oldgroaner

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you are wrong on this. EFTA does not want political union, it's only a free trade zone, that's what the brexiters want.
Perhaps you should read about accepting another Foreign court before you say that?
please don't just see the bits that take your fancy, it really is very similar to EU membership beyond the point that Brexit voters will accept
Again i post this from the EFTA website
"The European Economic Area (EEA) unites the EU Member States and the three EEA EFTA States (Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway) into an Internal Market governed by the same basic rules. These rules aim to enable goods, services, capital, and persons to move freely about the EEA in an open and competitive environment, a concept referred to as the four freedoms.

This association will gain us far less than we are giving up. And have the same restrictions
 
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oldgroaner

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you are wrong on this. EFTA does not want political union, it's only a free trade zone, that's what the brexiters want. The only opponents to us joining EFTA are those fanatics on both sides (a poll estimates the opponents to EFTA count for about 29% of the votes)
EFTA court is obliged to accept pre-1992 ECJ case laws but not later.
But it still has power over us, and Brexiters don't want that do they? it has a FOREIGN COURT OVER OURS
 
EFTA gives to brexiters:

1. No ECJ. Pick and choose which directives and how much to implement.
2. a greater control on EU workers (priority given to locals) and benefits (eg contribute 4 years before able to claim).
3. Can sign trade deals with non EU countries
4. Enjoy existing trade deals between EFTA and about 37 countries.
5. Access to most of the single market

As I said before, existing members will welcome UK to rejoin them.

I think moderate brexiters and moderate remainers would welcome that route and that should be enough to give the solution an overall majority of acceptance.
Remainers should also see the success of EFTA as proof that there is prosperity outside the EU.
1. There is some ECJ, and there is also the EFTA Court, so you'd just be replacing the ECJ with another court this one based in Luxembourg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFTA_Court

So this is a nonsense benefit.

2. Those controls exist currently with our relationship with the EU. Actually if we end up with the same rules the rest of EFTA has we'll actually have less control than we currently have.

So I'm afraid this is also nonsense.

3. We'd be in EFTA, not EU, so we'd just be swapping a perceived lack of control for another one. EFTA have their own agreerments just like EU does, so we couldn't sign deals as UK if we were in EFTA.

and.... guess what: http://www.efta.int/free-trade/free-trade-agreements

EFTA is just copying the EU. "EFTA's third-country policy was initially established in 1990 to mirror the European Union's external economic relations approach after the end of the Cold War."

So I'm not sure what benefit you see here, because we won't be able to sign deals as the UK, because we'll be in EFTA.

4. Yes, so pretty much the same as the EU, and because of these existing dealers you've just shown that number 3 is impossible.

5. So again, not as good as we currently have, with no benefits.

Is there any of the above you think I'm wrong about??
 

Woosh

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But it still has power over us, and Brexiters don't want that do they? it has a FOREIGN COURT OVER OURS
no, it doesn't. The EFTA court has limited power and it's only on economic matter. You can't take a HR or employment case to EFTA court for example.
It has no legislative power either (no EP).
and finally, it has a tiny budget (£17m a year).
EFTA embodies the ideas of the original common market as it was when we joined.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
This is an interview with Carl Baudenbacher, a judge working at the EFTA court, in which, he demystified the issues if the UK wanted to join an alternative grouping. A recent poll favours EFTA to the EU by a very large margin.
You seem really desperate to find any vehicle which will fit your bill to see the UK secede from the EU, even though you claim to have voted to remain.

Can you not see that the interviewee may very well have certain vested interests by commenting in such a way to a very precise set of questions posed? Moreover, why do you suppose that other states, more closely connected both politically and geographically with the EFTA group have not been clamouring to ditch the EU and become EFTA constituent members?

Perhaps your crystal ball allows you to see advantages in EFTA over the EU that others cannot. Common sense tells me that everything that EFTA has to offer and much more is already ours as an EU member. Your notion is plain daft - it's like volunteering to opt out of the Premier league and play in Division 2 of the football league.

Tom
 

oldgroaner

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You can't take a HR or employment case to EFTA court for example.
It has no legislative power either (no EP).
That's about the best argument for having nothing to do with this Cowboy outfit that i can possibly imagine.
No human rights court over the UK one?
Human rights should be an international concern not the reponsiblility of a single nation, where it is too easy to pervert.
Damn it we were part and parcel of setting up the ECJ now why did we do that?
Because we had seen what happens when this is left to National Governments.
Now some Bloody fool could come along and trash it to persecute the population?

That makes us into a North Korea clone, over time, as we know where that is going to lead.
What madness is this?
 

Woosh

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You seem really desperate to find any vehicle which will fit your bill to see the UK secede from the EU, even though you claim to have voted to remain.
my mind is not closed to arguments presented by people who disagree with me.
It's only by analysing the reasons why they (my opponents) feel they are in the right that I can eventually prove to be more right than them.
I learned that bit of a nugget from one of my physics teachers, in a lesson on torsors.
 

Woosh

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Fascinating! 'more right than them'.....'prove'....!

I'll bet your various analyses can demonstrate (to you) that you are never, ever wrong!

Tom
right and wrong are relative values. If you open your mind to your opponents' arguments and work hard on following their reasoning, you would stand a far better chance of proven more right than them.
In most of your replies to me, your starting point is that you are right and I am a fool.
I much prefer to be an informed fool that believing that I am right before knowing why my opponent thinks he is right.
 

Steb

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you are wrong on this. EFTA does not want political union, it's only a free trade zone, that's what the brexiters want. The only opponents to us joining EFTA are those fanatics on both sides (a poll estimates the opponents to EFTA count for about 29% of the votes)
EFTA court is obliged to accept pre-1992 ECJ case laws but not later.
Have a look at what erna solberg, Norwegian pm, say on reuters about UK joining eea. 'there would be a significant cost to share and they' (UK) 'would have to accept an authority outside their borders making binding decisions on them' is the mild part of it. This won't wash with part of the electorate that take the sun or the daily mail seriously. Practically we will take a very big economic knock (financial services will relocate, and others) , and still find ourselves with ukip et al foaming at the mouth. It brings to mind to me the consensus after charlotsville in USA growing against white supremacists. Perhaps we need to reach that kind of low ebb before it can fully dawn on brexitters that it (brexit) is and has been fundamentally wrong.
 

Kudoscycles

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Dave ship all your parts to Estonia before 2019 and have free access to the EU after Brexit;)

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/estonia-e-residency-offers-brexit-brits-eu-loophole/
Thank you. Most medium/larger size businesses are looking at establishing partnerships with their strongest customer in each EU country.
In the short term this will make little difference to UK-EU sales but the logic is that as a distributor grows then goods will be shipped direct from Asia to Rotterdam to fuel that distributor.....this will be awful for the UK,we will lose the vat and tax take on container loads of goods that currently are shipped from Asia through the UK to Europe.
I am sure companies larger than mine have already plans to establish EU distributors for their products.
The world is small now,business will find ways around Brexit,the only losers will be the UK and especially jobs in the UK.
KudosDave
 

Woosh

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Have a look at what erna solberg, Norwegian pm, say on reuters about UK joining eea. 'there would be a significant cost to share and they' (UK) 'would have to accept an authority outside their borders making binding decisions on them' is the mild part of it. This won't wash with part of the electorate that take the sun or the daily mail seriously. Practically we will take a very big economic knock (financial services will relocate, and others) , and still find ourselves with ukip et al foaming at the mouth. It brings to mind to me the consensus after charlotsville in USA growing against white supremacists. Perhaps we need to reach that kind of low ebb before it can fully dawn on brexitters that it (brexit) is and has been fundamentally wrong.
A recent poll suggests that if EFTA was adopted by our government, about 7 out of 10 voters would support it.
 

Woosh

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You say that as if 7 out of 10 voters know what efta means. I think not.
you don't need to be an expert to buy the deal.
flecc agreed that our government could sell EFTA.
 

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