Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

In terms of Generation of Power, surely Tidal power offers a better long term prospect than wind or solar power, as it has a certain reliability, and power can be extracted for most of the cycle

 

[Mal69]

Just a thought, why not have the government invest heavily in putting solar powered panels on every single house in the U.K, I often hear they give power back to the national grid, government can pay for it and householders agree that any excess power goes back to the grid.

 

[flecc]

the UK offshore wind farms can't compete against onshore wind farms yet, but I have been told last year by my son's friend that the cost of installed MWH in the North Sea is coming down much faster than projected now, driven by better reliability and lower construction cost. He works for Vestas and Dong.

No disagreement with that, it's only the true costs that I've illustrated that change the economics. Government is being willfully dishonest since they are so dependant on their wind strategy. One day we'll have to foot the true bill.

After all, wind power is a method that has to have up to 100% alternative power availability. That's bonkers economically, why not just have the alternative and no wind costs at all?
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[oldgroaner]

This news regarding the banning of the ICE by 2040 stands no chance of happening. The national grid will melt at the end of rush hour when everyone begins recharging for the following day's commute. How will the millions of people who park on the street charge their cars? With millions of kerb side charges? What about trucks, vans and coaches? Will these be electric too? What makes the government think that we are going to solve a problem which has eluded mankind for a hundred years within the next 10 to 15 years.....high energy density batteries?

I'm affraid this is all propaganda intended to soften us up for the coming assault on the Diesel powered car. After years of encouraging us to switch to Diesel, the penny has finally dropped and now the useless clowns are looking for a face saving way out of their error.

And not only avoiding the blame, but making us pay far more for the same utility!

 

[oldgroaner]

But only initially when new. The earlier ones are already proving very expensive due to gearbox repair and renewal costs and the tech in the new ones is no different. And the costs of carrying out that work are very high. All too frequently in our sea conditions it has to be carried out by helicopter at high personnel risks.

The end costs of wind are high, and then there's the poor utilisation. Few realise that the USA was the early entrant to wind power, having so many ideal sites. The best generation utilisation from any turbines there is 26% and many operate as low as 13%. Here in Britain many of our onshore ones have been criticised for generation time yields as low as 8% over a whole year.

And it's here that your figures fail, since for the other 80% or so of time when other methods have to produce the power, those costs are also wind ones, since they are due to wind absence or unsuitability. Add in those generation support costs for four-fifths of the time and wind is the most expensive of all generation methods.

Remember, we only need Hinckley because the wind cannot be relied on, so it's arguable that all the Hinckley costs are due to wind's failings.
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Tidal power is a more logical answer in all respects

 

[Mal69]

Incidentally, the oldest regiment in the U.K. the Coldstream guards, up the road from me and its situated right on the Scottish/English border, Berwick Upon Tweed isn't far from it, I am sure they took part in Dunkirk too.

 

[flecc]

In terms of Generation of Power, surely Tidal power offers a better long term prospect than wind or solar power, as it has a certain reliability, and power can be extracted for most of the cycle

Indeed, ideally two barriers in the Bristol Channel could generate 24 hours a day by phasing releases. It would be immensely costly to enclose enough of it, but I'd rather have seen all the huge wind expenditure used on that instead.
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[flecc]

I am sure they took part in Dunkirk too.

Quite probably, but there's a joke that twice as many claim to been there as actually were. I was around at the time too, but I've only been afloat in a few of the Dunkirk boats after the event.
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[oldgroaner]

Indeed, ideally two barriers in the Bristol Channel could generate 24 hours a day by phasing releases. It would be immensely costly to enclose enough of it, but I'd rather have seen all the huge wind expenditure used on that instead.
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Don't forget the Humber, so few ships travel into and out of it these days a simple lock gate system could accomodate them, and The Humber is a macrotidal estuary with at mean tidal conditions a tidal range of 4.3 m at the mouth.
That's a heck of a lot of energy there for the taking even with simple submerged turbines never mind a Dam
And of course out at Sea we could use "Salter's Nodding Ducks which can generate electricity for 2.6 p/kWh compared with 2.5 p/kWh for a new gas-fired power station, and 4.5 p/kWh for a nuclear power station.

 

[flecc]

Don't forget the Humber, so few ships travel into and out of it these days a simple lock gate system could accomodate them, and The Humber is a macrotidal estuary with at mean tidal conditions a tidal range of 4.3 m at the mouth.
That's a heck of a lot of energy there for the taking even with simple submerged turbines never mind a Dam

There's plenty, The Wash and the Thames Estuary for example, and those would be power where it's needed, not hundreds of miles away in Scotland or at sea.
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[flecc]

never mind a Dam

With our governments we'll be damned rather than dammed.
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[oldgroaner]

With our governments we'll be damned rather than dammed.
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Too late flecc it's the PAST tense now. not "be" but "are"

 

[Zlatan]

Why not introduce stricter limits on exhaust and make sure this time tests represent reality.
Its being optimistic to the extreme thinking we can condemn the ICE engine to the scrap heap at a politicians whim . A politician BTW who doesn't even know what he,s talking about on his own chosen subject.( I believe Gove is a supporter of this 2040 nonsense)

On the wind turbines...Advocates talk about "offshore" as if its some magical constantly windy place. Unfortunately it isn't. Yes the wind 10 miles or so of uk coast might be stronger than inland on any chosen day but not to the magnitude needed ti make turbines viable in North Sea. Yes , the wind will be more constant, the prevailing wind in UK is south westerly, consequently on a windy day at Beeford/ Fraisthorpe the wind may vary from 15 to 30 mph, reason been the wind has come over hills, around buildings etc etc. So much so the wind farm mentioned has heaviest blades in the world in an attempt to compensate for wind variance. Its offshore counter part will receive steadier wind but not overall that much stronger.You have to go well out to sea to get higher average winds of any significance. Further out than farms are being built in UK.
The winds around UK are produced by same systems .
Trouble is , much as UK is one of windiest places on earth, it also suffers from massive variations, long periods of little wind and then short periods of extreme winds.
Turbines need steady,predictable winds,with high average but little variation. Where you find them, you,ll find windsurfers ,kite surfers and happy sailors. Eg Canaries, Tarifa, Leucate, etc.. Not uk I,m afraid. We,ve all been conned. Sailors have been saying it for years. Wind turbines will never work properly in UK.

 

[oldgroaner]

The irony in all this of course is that I, like everyone else, sits on top of an inexhaustible source of Geothermal energy just waiting to be tapped.

The company I worked for did quite a lot of work on heat pumps and concluded that residential heating boilers faced obsolescence in the medium term, and this I suspect was at least a significant factor that led to them selling off the boiler manufacturing side of the business.

This is yet another promising technology neglected as there are quicker profits to be made with less investment.

 

[oldgroaner]

I feel tempted to misquote Aneurin Bevan who stated

"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time.

Here's my version

This island sits on top of a minor star surrounded by Tidal, wave and wind power Only an organising genius could produce a shortage of energy by failing to introduce the right generating technology and increasing the demand for it at least Tenfold with Electric vehicles at the same time.

 

[oldgroaner]

Quite probably, but there's a joke that twice as many claim to been there as actually were. I was around at the time too, but I've only been afloat in a few of the Dunkirk boats after the event.
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You still can flecc, the Regal Lady (Formerly the Oulton Belle) is one of the little ships and is currently running pleasure trips out of Scarborough harbour.
The engine that took her to Dunkirk was replaced with a diesel long ago, but is still aboard as ballast in the bilges!
Back then she was a double ended boat with prop and rudder at both end as there was nowhere to turn on the Broad she plied, the front end gear went long ago, but it must have been a plus to be able to retreat from the beach at Dunkirk at a full 10 knots without having to turn around!

 

[oldtom]

Cartoons have always reflected pretty accurately the general mood of the public at large. I think this one captures the current situation very well and I have to imagine there must be an awful lot of really disgruntled 'Leave' voters out there - surely no-one who thought secession from the EU would be a good idea still believes that the UK stands to be better off in any way at all?



Tom

 

[Woosh]

- surely no-one who thought secession from the EU would be a good idea still believes that the UK stands to be better off in any way at all?

you know very well that the fundamental reasons for leaving have not changed.
We want to trade with the EU but we don't want to be ruled by the EU. We welcome our EU neighbours when we need them but we don't want them to settle here.
We still want to retire to Southern Europe though.

 

[Mal69]

Cartoons have always reflected pretty accurately the general mood of the public at large. I think this one captures the current situation very well and I have to imagine there must be an awful lot of really disgruntled 'Leave' voters out there - surely no-one who thought secession from the EU would be a good idea still believes that the UK stands to be better off in any way at all?

View attachment 20486

Tom

Scotland will happily settle for just making another World Cup, I am starting to forget the last time, nineties right sure we always went home after the opening stages but it's good to be there, our game just isn't producing the talent and the people running it are clueless on how to improve things.

 

[Danidl]

Not really true, wind power is proving more expensive than thought at first, and the turbine positions are also problematic. Scotland and Wales are not where the current is needed and occasion up to 7% current loss in transmission to where it is needed. There's also a limit to how many turbines can be installed in those relatively small areas.

We're relying on large turbine fields at sea now to overcome that last problem, but again we are back to transmission losses and the maintenance costs of the seaborn ones are extremely high. Dangerous too, the risks very high.

And of course what happens when the wind doesn't blow or blows too hard? Their wind speed operating range is narrow.
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.. flecc, I often agree with you, but this topic is too broad for simple soundbites.
Oil provided a magic bullet for energy needs, but will soon have priced itself out of contention. There is a finite amount, and the zones where it found are becoming more and more inhospitable or the environmental impact of extracting it are becoming unacceptable.
Until fusion becomes an economic reality, there are no further magic bullets. What there is is a wide variety of different strategies, which together can knit together a sustainable future. Whenever this topic comes up , I encourage anybody to download and read the free book entitled "energy without the hot air "., By a Cambridge guy ..
Bluntly to use renewable energy you need to think big. Power transmission over long distances eg accross Europe into Africa eg 1000km is economically feasible with HVDC. Multiple Wide area wind farms removes the geographical problems of local weather . There are multiple energy storage strategies, to minimise grid fluctuations.. tidal and ocean barrages. And smart metering and demand side monitoring has value also.
The wind energy industry has in my opinion had to suffer a constant sneer campaign and false truths, highly reminiscent of the anti smoking campaigns. .. a typical one being that the turbine is failing to give adaquate performance because when operating it is not giving it's faceplate power. Deliberately misrepresentation of what faceplate power is..