Brexit, for once some facts.

[Kudoscycles]

Well the EU-UK negotiations are not going too well....
There are 4 important early agreements....
1. The EU people in the UK and the U.K. people in Europe should have same rights as both currently enjoy...the EU seems to have satisfied our people in Europe but TM doesn't seem to be able to satisfy the EU people in the UK,Barnier has said no deal.
2. We were about to start negotiating the divorce bill,Boris's childish whistling joke hasn't gone down well with the EU,I think they will ask for the full £87billion and we will tell them to go whistle,likely to end in no deal.
3. The border between Eire and NI,it appears the DUP are unhappy about Irish residents living in NI being able to vote for MEP in Eire....not sure why,but they don't want it,looks like no deal.
4. The Irish want £1billion from the EU to compensate for the disruption in Eire post Brexit,I suspect their timing is to give the EU a chance to add another billion to our divorce bill....still it's only another billion TM seems to be able to shake the money tree again.
It appears to me that the negotiations aren't really negotiations,the EU have put down their requirements and we must take it or leave it. Barnier doesn't seem to want to compromise and why should he....his attitude is that we chose to leave,if we want a deal we have to accept their deal or just leave with no deal.....we thought before the negotiations that we had a strong negotiating position,that was arrogantly naive.
It looks like the first 3 agreements could take so long that there will not be time to negotiate a free trade deal,as Barnier said today 'the clock is ticking'.
TM and her team thought that the EU would not want to fall back on WTO rules,I think they realise that we will still buy German cars if they cost 10% more,but the EU could buy most of what they currently buy off the UK from other sources,even inside the EU.
Barrier is right the UK will be the biggest loser.
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

It appears to me that the negotiations aren't really negotiations,the EU have put down their requirements and we must take it or leave it. Barnier doesn't seem to want to compromise and why should he....his attitude is that we chose to leave,if we want a deal we have to accept their deal or just leave with no deal.....we thought before the negotiations that we had a strong negotiating position,that was arrogantly naive.

Your post in toto Dave sums up pretty well where we are at in what is now looking more and more like something penned by Galton and Simpson for Eric Sykes and Spike Milligan or the like to provide the public with non-stop laughter.

After all the bluff and bluster, reality has kicked in and our crack team now looks increasingly like Dad's Army using their pitchforks and pickaxe handles to threaten the combined forces of 27 nations, headed up by the finest armoured divisions of the SS and the FFL.

This is going to be more embarrassing than Dunkirk at this rate!

I wonder if the tory party grandees are now perhaps secretly thinking of asking the nation if it remains their wish to proceed with 'Brexit', given the greater knowledge available today of the consequences of this drastic action.

Tom

 

[Danidl]

Your post in toto Dave sums up pretty well where we are at in what is now looking more and more like something penned by Galton and Simpson for Eric Sykes and Spike Milligan or the like to provide the public with non-stop laughter.

After all the bluff and bluster, reality has kicked in and our crack team now looks increasingly like Dad's Army using their pitchforks and pickaxe handles to threaten the combined forces of 27 nations, headed up by the finest armoured divisions of the SS and the FFL.

This is going to be more embarrassing than Dunkirk at this rate!

I wonder if the tory party grandees are now perhaps secretly thinking of asking the nation if it remains their wish to proceed with 'Brexit', given the greater knowledge available today of the consequences of this drastic action.

Tom

.. I hope that the Tory party grandees are thinking that and even better act on it!

 

[oldgroaner]

.. I hope that the Tory party grandees are thinking that and even better act on it!

The difficulty they face is that even if they wish to, their lies have become truth in the minds of brexit voters and undoing 40 years of propaganda, even if they managed to get the media on side, isn't likely to be a success.
Only bitter experience will free brexit voters from what has become an addiction, to the extent of a religious fetish.
It is so deeply ingrained they will not be able to accept they were duped, the shame of that too bitter to face.
The dream has to be shattered for them to do that.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Kudoscycles]

The difficulty they face is that even if they wish to, their lies have become truth in the minds of brexit voters and undoing 40 years of propaganda, even if they managed to get the media on side, isn't likely to be a success.
Only bitter experience will free brexit voters from what has become an addiction, to the extent of a religious fetish.
It is so deeply ingrained they will not be able to accept they were duped, the shame of that too bitter to face.
The dream has to be shattered for them to do that.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

Am watching the press review on Sky. Carole Malone represents the blind faith Brexiters,she takes the stance that we are all traitors to the cause because we are not getting behind Theresa May and that is undoing,in her eyes,this wonderful Brexit idea.
This will now be the future problem,when Brexit fails the likes of Carole Malone will blame us remainers for the failure of Brexit,she will never agree that Brexit was a stupid idea in the first place.
The guy,Stig Abell, on the press review is trying to discuss the merits of Brexit but she just shouts down any comments that Brexit should be forgotten,she does however seem to accept that Brexit will make us poorer.
Why won't Brexiters even listened to reasoned arguments against Brexit,Stig Abell tried to discuss Brexit with Malone but she was having none of it.
Brexit never had a mandate with such a close result,it was effectively a draw. Parliament was and still is full of remainers,who are just waiting for an opportunity to kill it ,the vote on the repeal bill or the vote on the divorce bill will kill Brexit.
My only concern is the UKIP voters backed up by the 80 Tory Euro-sceptics will get violent when they realise that their leave vote is now being deleted.
Boris Johnson and Theresa May have been the assasinators of Brexit,Boris 's stupid whistle joke fired the death shot.
KudosDave

 

[Danidl]

Well the EU-UK negotiations are not going too well....
There are 4 important early agreements....
1. The EU people in the UK and the U.K. people in Europe should have same rights as both currently enjoy...the EU seems to have satisfied our people in Europe but TM doesn't seem to be able to satisfy the EU people in the UK,Barnier has said no deal.
2. We were about to start negotiating the divorce bill,Boris's childish whistling joke hasn't gone down well with the EU,I think they will ask for the full £87billion and we will tell them to go whistle,likely to end in no deal.
3. The border between Eire and NI,it appears the DUP are unhappy about Irish residents living in NI being able to vote for MEP in Eire....not sure why,but they don't want it,looks like no deal.
4. The Irish want £1billion from the EU to compensate for the disruption in Eire post Brexit,I suspect their timing is to give the EU a chance to add another billion to our divorce bill....still it's only another billion TM seems to be able to shake the money tree again.
It appears to me that the negotiations aren't really negotiations,the EU have put down their requirements and we must take it or leave it. Barnier doesn't seem to want to compromise and why should he....his attitude is that we chose to leave,if we want a deal we have to accept their deal or just leave with no deal.....we thought before the negotiations that we had a strong negotiating position,that was arrogantly naive.
It looks like the first 3 agreements could take so long that there will not be time to negotiate a free trade deal,as Barnier said today 'the clock is ticking'.
TM and her team thought that the EU would not want to fall back on WTO rules,I think they realise that we will still buy German cars if they cost 10% more,but the EU could buy most of what they currently buy off the UK from other sources,even inside the EU.
Barrier is right the UK will be the biggest loser.
KudosDave

.. it seems to me that Barnier is prepared to negotiate , but he can't make out what the UK position actually is. He appears exasperated at present. Some of his comments would lead to that conclusion. As an analogy it's like a football team who have actually organised to host a game on their grounds, and when the opposition team arrives they just want a kick around, using pullovers as goal posts and in the carpark.

 

[oldgroaner]

Am watching the press review on Sky. Carole Malone represents the blind faith Brexiters,she takes the stance that we are all traitors to the cause because we are not getting behind Theresa May and that is undoing,in her eyes,this wonderful Brexit idea.
This will now be the future problem,when Brexit fails the likes of Carole Malone will blame us remainers for the failure of Brexit,she will never agree that Brexit was a stupid idea in the first place.
The guy,Stig Abell, on the press review is trying to discuss the merits of Brexit but she just shouts down any comments that Brexit should be forgotten,she does however seem to accept that Brexit will make us poorer.
Why won't Brexiters even listened to reasoned arguments against Brexit,Stig Abell tried to discuss Brexit with Malone but she was having none of it.
Brexit never had a mandate with such a close result,it was effectively a draw. Parliament was and still is full of remainers,who are just waiting for an opportunity to kill it ,the vote on the repeal bill or the vote on the divorce bill will kill Brexit.
My only concern is the UKIP voters backed up by the 80 Tory Euro-sceptics will get violent when they realise that their leave vote is now being deleted.
Boris Johnson and Theresa May have been the assasinators of Brexit,Boris 's stupid whistle joke fired the death shot.
KudosDave

The supreme irony of all this is that the only thing that can be claimed to legitimise Brexit is the promise made by the Conservatives to honour the Brexit result and act immediately the following Monday!
When Cameron reneged on his personal responsibility this downward spiral of increasing intolerance and rising public impatience, and anger, crime and indeed financial loss began
The only things keeping this debacle going are these

1. Visions of power to reduce living standards and workers rights to enhance profits, by order of the Tory Paymasters
   
2. Fear of Public unrest
3. A total lack of sensible opposition.

There is no case or Plan available, or conceivable where Brexit offers either a short term advantage of a long term Brighter Future, it is simply a Stupid idea and dangerous too, liable to harm the public create suffering and unrest

I.M.H.O it would be better to face the prospect of what will be a Flash in the pan violent reaction to cancelling Brexit now, rather than face a veritable Tsunami later when real poverty and the understanding that the future is Bleak strike the general public.

Failing to cancel this mad Brexit experiment is abject cowardice or worse on the part of the Westminster politicians.
History will record them as being of the same value as the Rump Parliament of 1653
"Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance. "

 

[Woosh]

do you think that many brexiters will worry about paying a small amount of extra duty on imported goods after brexit?

 

[Croxden]

do you think that many brexiters will worry about paying a small amount of extra duty on imported goods after brexit?

Yes they would and will it only be small?

 

[Woosh]

Yes they would and will it only be small?

yes, I think so. The losses, if they happen, will be in jobs rather than in prices.
Goods coming from outside the EU will continue to pay the same duty, goods coming from the EU may attract a small amount of duty, at most 3% except cars and foodstuff.
It is within our government power to waive unilaterally the duty on goods coming from the EU.
By the time of brexit, the current inflation rate will have subsided and the effect of new duty on EU goods on inflation is well below 1%. I think it's likely to be about 0.3%

 

[oldgroaner]

do you think that many brexiters will worry about paying a small amount of extra duty on imported goods after brexit?

It will be a great deal worse than a small amount of extra duty
Brexit was a protest about immigration and austerity, both of which will surge, when you combine this with other factors it will create a perfect storm
And brexit voters are not the majority of the public are they?
They are just a large faction, which will rapidly dissipate if things get tough, as the leader of the leave EU campaign has done already.

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[Woosh]

Brexit was a protest about immigration and austerity, both of which will surge, when you combine this with other factors it will create a perfect storm

no storm, if anything, the British economy will fizzle and most brexiters get what they want: less immigration and no ECJ.
The loser is the Treasury. Fewer immigrants means reducing the GDP and tax take.
Austerity is a policy, not a consequence of voting for brexit and for possible job losses, it affects directly a small number of people who would not have voted for brexit anyway.
As I said before, I am happy with TM losing her majority, making hard brexit much more unlikely.

 

[oldgroaner]

no storm, if anything, the British economy will fizzle and most brexiters get what they want: less immigration and no ECJ.
The loser is the Treasury. Fewer immigrants means reducing the GDP and tax take.
Austerity is a policy, not a consequence of voting for brexit.
As I said before, I am happy with TM losing her majority, making hard brexit much more unlikely.

Brexiters are a minority that will reduce not increase

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[Woosh]

Brexiters are a minority that will reduce not increase

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I am not sure about that.
At present, the tories are rudderless but if Mr Corbyn somehow manages to win enough seats at the next GE to become the next PM, his government won't probably do any better. that's why I think that the transition period is important for both parties. Even for hard brexiters, they should embrace the transitional arrangement because it's just common sense. It will make brexit less painful for the majority.
We are going to exit the EU.

 

[Kudoscycles]

do you think that many brexiters will worry about paying a small amount of extra duty on imported goods after brexit?

Depends whether it puts up the price of fags and lager?

 

[Kudoscycles]

I am not sure about that.
At present, the tories are rudderless but if Mr Corbyn somehow manages to win enough seats at the next GE to become the next PM, his government won't probably do any better. that's why I think that the transition period is important for both parties. Even for hard brexiters, they should embrace the transitional arrangement because it's just common sense. It will make brexit less painful for the majority.
We are going to exit the EU.

You are speaking as an older person. Talk to younger people and they are very European,they dont want control on immigration and love the free movement of people. Remember old people are dying off as youngsters are able to vote,Corbyn appeals to the young.
Hard Brexit is dead,any Brexit is going to be so soft as to be indistinguishable from current....I dont think its going to happen...lets see what happens when Davis and May are asked for £87billion,hehe!!!!!
Boris better learn to whistle !!!
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

This creature is not fit to represent the UK. He is an imbecile and the people of Uxbridge and South Ruislip who voted for him as their MP really ought to search their consciences.



Tom

 

[tommie]

Right! Enough is enough,

bout time this vindictive tory government was replaced!

Just after reading this ..
News: Electric bikes considered ‘motorbikes’ on Northern Ireland’s roads, says BA
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/news-electric-bikes-considered-‘motorbikes’-on-northern-ireland’s-roads-says-ba.28406/

seemingly imposed on us just yesterday, the 12th of July no less lol!

So it`s off to meet my local Westminster MP Jeffrey Donaldson (DUP) asap.

Yes, if May doesn`t want to be looking at Corbyns mug across the dispatch box this had better be brought into line with the rest of the UK pdq!.

To be serious, what happens to our local Halfords, ChainReaction, Decathlon, the local Bike Shop?
Been in Halfords recently and they`re well stocked up with ebikes, question is can they now sell them for their intended purpose? Who will want to buy?

(bit OT i know but it does involve this shambles of an administration, how more absurd can you get?)

 

[Croxden]

(bit OT i know but it does involve this shambles of an administration, how more absurd can you get?)

You ain't seen nothin' yet.

 

[oldgroaner]

I am not sure about that.
At present, the tories are rudderless but if Mr Corbyn somehow manages to win enough seats at the next GE to become the next PM, his government won't probably do any better. that's why I think that the transition period is important for both parties. Even for hard brexiters, they should embrace the transitional arrangement because it's just common sense. It will make brexit less painful for the majority.
We are going to exit the EU.

Sorry but I really cannot see or understand why the 70 plus percent of the population that did NOT vote for Brexit should be put to additional expense (however small) lose a promising future for their children, and their citizenship of the EU, because of a 4% majority by a bunch of people who had no idea of what they were voting for or against in an advisory non legal referendum

Brexit is an assault on our Human rights, nothing more, nothing less

Brexit will never be less painful it was always be a case of our being Mugged
and if you imagine it will simply blow over, go out and buy a lottery ticket, the odds on winning are thousands of times better.

What will happen is that a Campaign to join the EU will slowly but surely reverse this mad decision, but not before there has been far too much suffering, stress and poverty.

This is simply a hiccup on the path to the formation of a European Superstate, which now thanks to mass ignorance and lies we will be reduced to a becoming a second rate member of.

What flight of fancy makes you imagine that those who voted to stay are in any way less committed than they were, when they too have to suffer for the foolishness of others?
Are we supposed to applaud and say thank you?