Brexit, for once some facts.

tillson

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Labour is suggesting it may not just stop uni tuition fees,it may cancel all student debt. That is not so expensive that may appear,It is said that only 77% of student debt will ever be collected.
The students loan company is very poor at collecting student debts.
The interest on the loan is currently 3% over RPI,6% ,this interest is applied even when the student is at uni,that seems crazy.
Maybe a complete rethink of the student loan system is needed. Maybe only charge £3000 per student year,charge no interest,but develop a much more robust system to collect the debt.
Cancelling all student debt may cost less than Brexit,it would be a big vote winner amongst past students.
KudosDave
Something needs to be done to reduce the number of university places on offer, thus increasing competition. Over the past 20 years, there has been an explosion in the number of degree courses on offer and many of them equip the people who have invested their time and money for nothing useful.

It seems to go back to the Blair era when the university bonanza started. I guess it was a political "feel good" exercise, cynically calculated to cause proud mums and dads to "well up" at the graduation ceremony and announce those immortal words "our Jade / Kyle is the first one from this family to go to university." The truth in so many cases is that Jade & Kyle were never academics and never will be. They are now saddled with a minimum £27000 debt and a useless degree which required no more effort to attain than simply turning up for 50% of the 2.5 hour per week lecture time.

Of course the other great con is that occupations which used to have training paid for by the employer, have now suddenly become degree level subjects. The NHS are into this. A degree in nursing, a degree for medical technicians and soon a degree in policemaning. These are not degree subjects, it's a con to make people pay for their own training.

The bottom line is that a few people are academically gifted and a lot aren't. Therefore, we need fewer university places, maybe with free tuition, and lots of good quality vocational training for the shitmunchers. It's the only way forward.
 

Kudoscycles

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Something needs to be done to reduce the number of university places on offer, thus increasing competition. Over the past 20 years, there has been an explosion in the number of degree courses on offer and many of them equip the people who have invested their time and money for nothing useful.

It seems to go back to the Blair era when the university bonanza started. I guess it was a political "feel good" exercise, cynically calculated to cause proud mums and dads to "well up" at the graduation ceremony and announce those immortal words "our Jade / Kyle is the first one from this family to go to university." The truth in so many cases is that Jade & Kyle were never academics and never will be. They are now saddled with a minimum £27000 debt and a useless degree which required no more effort to attain than simply turning up for 50% of the 2.5 hour per week lecture time.

Of course the other great con is that occupations which used to have training paid for by the employer, have now suddenly become degree level subjects. The NHS are into this. A degree in nursing, a degree for medical technicians and soon a degree in policemaning. These are not degree subjects, it's a con to make people pay for their own training.

The bottom line is that a few people are academically gifted and a lot aren't. Therefore, we need fewer university places, maybe with free tuition, and lots of good quality vocational training for the shitmunchers. It's the only way forward.
I agree,a guy on question time said it all...University should be academically challenging and financially easy.
I did my degree in Auto Engineering,I had 27 hours of lectures a week,one of my friends was studying computer science,he had 5 hours of lectures a week. I barely had time to keep up with the work,he was always down the pub. There seem to be a lot of degrees now which require a lot of 'down the pub' study time....media studies,beach management,hehe.
KudosDave
 
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oldgroaner

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Something needs to be done to reduce the number of university places on offer, thus increasing competition. Over the past 20 years, there has been an explosion in the number of degree courses on offer and many of them equip the people who have invested their time and money for nothing useful.

It seems to go back to the Blair era when the university bonanza started. I guess it was a political "feel good" exercise, cynically calculated to cause proud mums and dads to "well up" at the graduation ceremony and announce those immortal words "our Jade / Kyle is the first one from this family to go to university." The truth in so many cases is that Jade & Kyle were never academics and never will be. They are now saddled with a minimum £27000 debt and a useless degree which required no more effort to attain than simply turning up for 50% of the 2.5 hour per week lecture time.

Of course the other great con is that occupations which used to have training paid for by the employer, have now suddenly become degree level subjects. The NHS are into this. A degree in nursing, a degree for medical technicians and soon a degree in policemaning. These are not degree subjects, it's a con to make people pay for their own training.

The bottom line is that a few people are academically gifted and a lot aren't. Therefore, we need fewer university places, maybe with free tuition, and lots of good quality vocational training for the shitmunchers. It's the only way forward.
Verily the old saying is true
For every Schoolchild with the spark of genius
there are thousands with ignition trouble.

Which does not mean that with correct training they cannot do most useful jobs, far more appropriate to the tasks at hand.

Among the many opinions I have heard muttered at meetings when some new Graduate was introduced the the management were

"Employ a Graduate while they still know everything"
"How will a Sociology Degree help run the Foundry?"
"And Oh, no! not another Bloody Graduate, the last one lasted a Fortnight."

For after all University Degrees guarantee only the equivalent of testing the depth of water left in a colander after the pouring in phase is completed and it has time to pour out of the many holes.
 
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Woosh

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"How will a Sociology Degree help run the Foundry?"
Don't under-estimate the usefulness of sociology.
You wouldn't have brexit if more students take it at AS or A level.
It teaches our young students

Religion
Power, politics and protest
Social policy and welfare
World sociology
Theory and methods
Crime and deviance
Stratification and social differences

(One of my old friends teaches it)
 
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oldgroaner

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Don't under-estimate the usefulness of sociology.
You wouldn't have brexit if more students take it at AS or A level.
It teaches our young students

Religion
Power, politics and protest
Social policy and welfare
World sociology
Theory and methods
Crime and deviance
Stratification and social differences

(One of my old friends teaches it)
Everything has a place, though I don't doubt that among Brexit Voters there are a number with such degrees, which clearly cannot have put them off.
Education does not guarantee wisdom after all.

A Sociology Degree isn't worth a Tinkers Cuss when it comes to running a Foundry where the air is full of poisonous fumes, everything covered in Black sand, the heat is near unbearable and you can't hear yourself think for the noise.
it is in fact utterly useless, and so it proved, he was the one who lasted a fortnight.
The Foundry Men were not impressed
"Shouldn't put Boys in Men's Jobs!" was scrawled on the notice announcing he had "Gone to explore a career outside the company"

Actually we old hands were quite impressed, as workers sent round from job centres were often out of the door the moment they actually saw the place from the inside, and the job centres didn't sanction them for turning it down.
 
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Woosh

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Education does not guarantee wisdom after all.
may be not but not just sociology. My son has 5 degrees, all in engineering, but he is so clumsy with his hands that I much prefer he sticks to the keyboard.
 

oldgroaner

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Both Media Studies and Journalism have degrees, but there is no degree in Web Forum contribution. Strange, it often takes the form of journalism or authorship.
.
And as we have come to know, the subtle arts of circular argument, plagiarism, dodgy statistics, misquotes, obfuscation and applied confusion too, perhaps "Unsocialology" would be the correct term?
Works for me (Not personally you understand of course)
 
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Danidl

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may be not but not just sociology. My son has 5 degrees, all in engineering, but he is so clumsy with his hands that I much prefer he sticks to the keyboard.
.. I have a number of responses to that ranging from .. if he is clumsy with his hands , it is your fault for not encouraging him at the appropriate stage.. mind you I am equally at fault with my own children , so don't take it personally. .. to stating being an engineer is not about working with your hands .. "the output from an engineering department is paper..."
When I first read this in a reputable electronics trade journel some 40 years ago I was horrified , but over the years I have come to accept it's truth.
 
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Danidl

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Something needs to be done to reduce the number of university places on offer, thus increasing competition. Over the past 20 years, there has been an explosion in the number of degree courses on offer and many of them equip the people who have invested their time and money for nothing useful.

It seems to go back to the Blair era when the university bonanza started. I guess it was a political "feel good" exercise, cynically calculated to cause proud mums and dads to "well up" at the graduation ceremony and announce those immortal words "our Jade / Kyle is the first one from this family to go to university." The truth in so many cases is that Jade & Kyle were never academics and never will be. They are now saddled with a minimum £27000 debt and a useless degree which required no more effort to attain than simply turning up for 50% of the 2.5 hour per week lecture time.

Of course the other great con is that occupations which used to have training paid for by the employer, have now suddenly become degree level subjects. The NHS are into this. A degree in nursing, a degree for medical technicians and soon a degree in policemaning. These are not degree subjects, it's a con to make people pay for their own training.

The bottom line is that a few people are academically gifted and a lot aren't. Therefore, we need fewer university places, maybe with free tuition, and lots of good quality vocational training for the shitmunchers. It's the only way forward.
Finally a topic on which I should have a informed professional opinion.
In an era when the vast majority of people could not read or write, the few who could , irrespective of discipline, were at a premium. Any university degree was therefore " useful". But university degrees were never intended to be useful. What they were intended for was to develop the minds of a few, particularly of the ruling class. (.be they clergy, military officers ,or lawyers ).
Vocational education was on the other hand designed to meet specific needs, medical knowledge, engineering knowledge, architecture, mining etc. Some of the most prestigious colleges worldwide have their origins in these persuits.
These senior vocational education activities were corralled by the universities and degrees offered .
As society evolved with a greater amount of disposable money, and with an increasing middle class , more specialities emerged, and lower ranked institutions were set up. .. typing, accounting and bookkeeping, mechanic, technical training in the arts and crafts for commerce.
Snobbery and prestige for ones own group is one of the less likeable human traits, and there has always been a conflict between those who are in with those who are out. .. as long as university is associated with getting ahead then this conflict will exist.
Everybody wants to think that they are as good as anyone else . But not everyone thinks the same way. The university model is only suited to those who can think in the abstract and in generalisation

Now there are those who are capable of understanding and arguing abstract principles and going from an abstract principle to a concrete example. That mind set is what might be termed academic The majority of people can understand a concrete example and if shown a number of them can be brought to understand that there is a unifying principle or abstraction behind them.
. Example here is a wheel, I can spin it, here is a heavier bigger wheel I can spin it , it is harder to spin, and from these concrete examples introduce concepts of inertia. The abstract way would be inertia is represented by the letter I, and then do the maths... Only a small . Percentage of people can do that. And university is unsuitable for the others.
 
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oldgroaner

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From today's Daily Mirror
"
Jeremy Corbyn brutally shoots down Theresa May's bid to work together declaring she's 'run out of steam'
Labour's leader taunted the Prime Minister's plea for rivals to "contribute" ideas on Brexit - and said she should call another election instead"

Interesting!
 
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oldgroaner

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Finally a topic on which I should have a informed professional opinion.
In an era when the vast majority of people could not read or write, the few who could , irrespective of discipline, were at a premium. Any university degree was therefore " useful". But university degrees were never intended to be useful. What they were intended for was to develop the minds of a few, particularly of the ruling class. (.be they clergy, military officers ,or lawyers ).
Vocational education was on the other hand designed to meet specific needs, medical knowledge, engineering knowledge, architecture, mining etc. Some of the most prestigious colleges worldwide have their origins in these persuits.
These senior vocational education activities were corralled by the universities and degrees offered .
As society evolved with a greater amount of disposable money, and with an increasing middle class , more specialities emerged, and lower ranked institutions were set up. .. typing, accounting and bookkeeping, mechanic, technical training in the arts and crafts for commerce.
Snobbery and prestige for ones own group is one of the less likeable human traits, and there has always been a conflict between those who are in with those who are out. .. as long as university is associated with getting ahead then this conflict will exist.
Everybody wants to think that they are as good as anyone else . But not everyone thinks the same way. The university model is only suited to those who can think in the abstract and in generalisation

Now there are those who are capable of understanding and arguing abstract principles and going from an abstract principle to a concrete example. That mind set is what might be termed academic The majority of people can understand a concrete example and if shown a number of them can be brought to understand that there is a unifying principle or abstraction behind them.
. Example here is a wheel, I can spin it, here is a heavier bigger wheel I can spin it , it is harder to spin, and from these concrete examples introduce concepts of inertia. The abstract way would be inertia is represented by the letter I, and then do the maths... Only a small . Percentage of people can do that. And university is unsuitable for the others.
The concept of Universities being the arbiters of intelligence is simplistic it fails dismally to explain how Aborigines for instance developed the Boomerang, and also of course the first insights that gave us Fire and the wheel.
Maths are simply a language imposed on imaginative concepts, without the concepts, one might well argue what use are the maths?

A Hovercraft design involves very complex equations in design and manufacture, considering the original concept involved two nested tin cans and a vacuum cleaner used as a blower.

Stimulating the creative imagination would be a worthier goal than churning out clones that can merely refine a process to the N'th degree.
And of course implanting a suitable interface into the human skull to access the internet would eliminate the need for much in the way of education, but destroy human individuality in the process,, though one could argue the intellectual case that that particular horse has long since bolted!
The evidence of that is all too visible, and not just in the younger generation.
 
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Danidl

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The concept of Universities being the arbiters of intelligence is simplistic it fails dismally to explain how Aborigines for instance developed the Boomerang, and also of course the first insights that gave us Fire and the wheel.
Maths are simply a language imposed on imaginative concepts, without the concepts, one might well argue what use are the maths?

A Hovercraft design involves very complex equations in design and manufacture, considering the original concept involved two nested tin cans and a vacuum cleaner used as a blower.

Stimulating the creative imagination would be a worthier goal than churning out clones that can merely refine a process to the N'th degree.
And of course implanting a suitable interface into the human skull to access the internet would eliminate the need for much in the way of education, but destroy human individuality in the process,, though one could argue the intellectual case that that particular horse has long since bolted!
The evidence of that is all too visible, and not just in the younger generation.
.. I've always wondered how the birds were able to solve the multivariate calculus, in every wing beat and keep flying.. seriously though the maths are needed to move from a concept to a product, which can be manufactured and stood over
 
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oldgroaner

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.. I've always wondered how the birds were able to solve the multivariate calculus, in every wing beat and keep flying.. seriously though the maths are needed to move from a concept to a product, which can be manufactured and stood over
That wasn't my experience, we tended to make the prototype and prove it first, then get into production because the Marketing Department had already launched on the basis of model of the prototype, and still be working through several generations of design updates because they wanted a racehorse but had asked us for a Camel, before as is the case after visiting the toilet, getting around to the paper work!
I remember the blessed day that BS:5750 came on the scene and a vague semblance of order began to emerge... can anyone else remember that?
 
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Woosh

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But university degrees were never intended to be useful. What they were intended for was to develop the minds of a few, particularly of the ruling class. (.be they clergy, military officers ,or lawyers ).
my years spent at uni taught me to how to teach myself, to scrutinize and to improve. The contents of the courses are mostly forgotten more or less immediately after sitting the exams.
 
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Kudoscycles

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All Ford apprentices,Craft,Technical and Student had to spend 12 months in the apprentice training school...we learnt to run a lathe,operate a shaper,learnt to weld,work in the garage,learn 'basic' programming,drawing office. Then were put out to work in body in white,research and development and the star place for me AVO and the rally team.
It is said it cost £250,000 to train a student apprentice,the most brilliant training and I am very grateful for it,I use that training even now,every working day,thank you Ford Motor Co.
An amusing anecdote....we had a spare Le Mans winning GT40 in the school museum....it was to be sold at auction....but in the end they decided to raffle it to all 300 at the school,apprentices and teachers.
A 17 year old skinhead won it,Frankie.....imagine what a wing tailed Le Mans winning GT40 would be worth now,many millions....I can't remember what Frankie did with it.
KudosDave
 
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Danidl

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All Ford apprentices,Craft,Technical and Student had to spend 12 months in the apprentice training school...we learnt to run a lathe,operate a shaper,learnt to weld,work in the garage,learn 'basic' programming,drawing office. Then were put out to work in body in white,research and development and the star place for me AVO and the rally team.
It is said it cost £250,000 to train a student apprentice,the most brilliant training and I am very grateful for it,I use that training even now,every working day,thank you Ford Motor Co.
An amusing anecdote....we had a spare Le Mans winning GT40 in the school museum....it was to be sold at auction....but in the end they decided to raffle it to all 300 at the school,apprentices and teachers.
A 17 year old skinhead won it,Frankie.....imagine what a wing tailed Le Mans winning GT40 would be worth now,many millions....I can't remember what Frankie did with it.
KudosDave
Hands on training in small groups is and always was very expensive on resources. Soldiers , police, flight , engineering technicians are all very expensive. There is expensive equipment , which must be industry standard, to be mastered, materials need to be consumed, and having a small group ups the per capita cost.
There is a difference between training and "education". In training the person is exposed to a piece of equipment or a process and learns to operate it, there are limited objectives., Competence and safeworking practices being one of them. Education is more open ended , and competence in completing tasks is not normally measured.
 
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