Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

that is because the margin between the two camps is still too small.
Politicians will react accordingly when the margin is big enough - 40-60.

I must comment on the absolute Irony (and truth) of your remark with this response
The question is, why did Parliament not require so positive a vote to leave the EU at the ratio of 60-40?
What madness made them accept a 52% to 48% decision on so important an issue, about which no one had even an inkling of what would be involved?
Do you wonder other nations view us as acting as if we have taken leave of our senses?
Quite obviously we must have done, as it wouldn't have taken a genius to see that when the consequences could be grave and support so divided, it was madness to abandon the status Quo for the sake of avoiding trouble in the short term.
At that time people were more inclined to have accepted that then than they are now.

 

[flecc]

Depends where you get your information from:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/15/two-thirds-voters-now-support-brexit/

Very distorted as this quote from them shows:

A total of 23 per cent – described as “Re-Leavers” – said that they voted Remain last year, but now believe the government has a duty to carry out the will of the British people

The bold highlighted text clearly shows they were answering a different question. It doesn't show any belief in leaving being a good option.

The straight question now clearly shows some 60% in favour of remaining, ahead of leave by a much larger margin than the referendum result. Since that opinion is based on events rather than being led by blatantly lying campaign teams, it's clearly more true.
.

 

[flecc]

that is because the margin between the two camps is still too small.
Politicians will react accordingly when the margin is big enough - 40-60.

According to the polls asking the most honest question, it's 40 - 60 in favour of remaining now.
.

 

[Woosh]

The question is, why did Parliament not require so positive a vote to leave the EU at the ratio of 60-40?

Cameron was so sure of winning, he became careless.
When he called the referendum, remain was way, way ahead of leave.
Plus, his majority was not enough to contemplate running a second or third referendum.
I also suspect that all PMs are naturally nationalistic - they just hide it in public because nationalism no longer fits well in the connected world.

 

[Zlatan]

Not a lot of news about situation in Hamburg, that was until 75 police injured. Its been known for a good few weeks 100,000 anti capitalists protesters were expected to descend on Hamburg to coincide with meeting of Merkel, Trump etc...
All is not well in Europe...petrol bombs, water canon and "Hell in Hanburg" ( protesters description)

Lets just hope the hate in UK doesn't lead to similar events..??

 

[shemozzle999]

Very distorted as this quote from them shows:

A total of 23 per cent – described as “Re-Leavers” – said that they voted Remain last year, but now believe the government has a duty to carry out the will of the British people

The bold highlighted text clearly shows they were answering a different question. It doesn't show any belief in leaving being a good option.

The straight question now clearly shows some 60% in favour of remaining, ahead of leave by a much larger margin than the referendum result. Since that opinion is based on events rather than being led by blatantly lying campaign teams, it's clearly more true.
.

London maybe, not the UK:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/eu-referendum-london-backs-remain-vote-poll-shows-a3256001.html

 

[flecc]

London maybe, not the UK:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/eu-referendum-london-backs-remain-vote-poll-shows-a3256001.html

Yes in London a comfortable 17% gap in favour of remain when all included, but even the rest of the country has reversed the referendum with a full 4% advantage for remain. An 8% swing is substantial.

There's clear signs that fear is setting in as the problems are beginning to be exposed, and that can only increase.
.

 

[flecc]

Not a lot of news about situation in Hamburg, that was until 75 police injured. Its been known for a good few weeks 100,000 anti capitalists protesters were expected to descend on Hamburg to coincide with meeting of Merkel, Trump etc...
All is not well in Europe...petrol bombs, water canon and "Hell in Hanburg" ( protesters description)

Lets just hope the hate in UK doesn't lead to similar events..??

All perfectly normal, a 100,000 protest is peanuts, we've had more than 10 times that in London a few times, even bought water cannon but weren't allowed to use them.

Europe is doing ok, the economy is recovering, Greece is in surplus and the Right have been vanquished. Meanwhile we in the UK are are a slippery downhill slope.
.

 

[Woosh]

There's clear signs that fear is setting in as the problems are beginning to be exposed, and that can only increase.

yes, but none of the advantages of brexit has been explored or tested, for example, re-nationalisation of water, power, post office and rail, or how to give our students free university tuition and not extend the largesse to other nationalities.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

yes, but none of the advantages of brexit has been explored or tested, for example, re-nationalisation of water, power, post office and rail, or how to give our students free university tuition and not extend the largesse to other nationalities.

really.... you think those things can't be done inside the EU?

 

[Woosh]

really.... you think those things can't be done inside the EU?

no. You have to treat all EU students equally. The rules of the single market makes privatisation very easy and to reverse it and/or state intervention very difficult.

 

[Kudoscycles]

QUOTE="oldgroaner, post: 384628, member: 15142"]New poll? that was published on 15 May 2017 • 2:12pm
That's nothing in the Express the polls give Brexit 105% support.

There is only only one poll that is relevant to the title of this thread.

It was conducted last year.

It was called the referendum.

So to summarize this thread "Brexit, for once some facts" - we are leaving the EU.[/QUOTE]

Nope,I am more convinced than ever that we are staying in,that is if the EU still want us. The referendum was instigated by the Tories,if Cameron had immediately triggered A50 then maybe we would have left.
But the longer it is delayed the more reasons to stay are evolving and the more this Tory government are making a mess of it. Even the most ardent Brexiteer must admit that our negotiating team and stance dont look credible against Barnier and the EU team. I feel sorry for Davis he doesnt really know what he should be trying to achieve.
We are in the death spiral of May and the Tory right wingers. Any change of government ,whether its Labour or a new Tory PM will have to make peace with the EU and either U-turn or go for such a soft Brexit that it will be like staying in....we just need to get rid of May,that will be the catalyst.
Anybody who thinks otherwise has only got to look at Corbyn and Labour,2 months ago he had no chance,now he is the favourite....our electorate are a fickle lot,give them a few goodies and they soon jump ship.
I dont know anybody who would vote to leave now,especially the young and London ,pretty much 100% want to stay....dont believe the polls,a vote to remain by any party would now be a vote winner, a landslide in fact.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

Anybody who thinks otherwise has only got to look at Corbyn and Labour,2 months ago he had no chance,now he is the favourite....

I wouldn't be so hasty..
Corbyn needs to win 60 more seats at the next GE. It won't be easy, especially the tories will have prepared a plan to get the pensioners and some middle ground voters back.

 

[oldgroaner]

yes, but none of the advantages of brexit has been explored or tested, for example, re-nationalisation of water, power, post office and rail, or how to give our students free university tuition and not extend the largesse to other nationalities.

And the probability of any of that happening is no better than winning the Lottery

 

[oldgroaner]

I wouldn't be so hasty..
Corbyn needs to win 60 more seats at the next GE. It won't be easy, especially the tories will have prepared a plan to get the pensioners and some middle ground voters back.

Frankly outside of the EU labour would do better to stand back and watch, and have nothing whatever to do with Brexit.

 

[oldgroaner]

I wouldn't be so hasty..
Corbyn needs to win 60 more seats at the next GE. It won't be easy, especially the tories will have prepared a plan to get the pensioners and some middle ground voters back.

It doesn't really matter till Brexit has run it's course.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I wouldn't be so hasty..
Corbyn needs to win 60 more seats at the next GE. It won't be easy, especially the tories will have prepared a plan to get the pensioners and some middle ground voters back.

Thats why I qualified my posting with also 'a new Tory leader'....there are still 200 plus Tory remainers in the Tory party and we know that the Labour remainers,the SNP and the Liberals would all like to vote May out and get rid of Brexit.
I think the catalyst is going to be when the EU put their hand out for the £87 billion divorce settlement,how is May going to sell that bill to our parliament and our electorate....whips on Labour and Tory side are going to struggle to stop both lots of rebels voting it down.
The Tories are going to need a change of leader,change of direction to have a reason to have another GE,but this time they will need a remainer and diluted austerity as PM,otherwise it will be conceived as May again.
May and Brexit are joined at the hip,once she goes it will be a new ball game.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

yes, but none of the advantages of brexit has been explored or tested, for example, re-nationalisation of water, power, post office and rail, or how to give our students free university tuition and not extend the largesse to other nationalities.

. That doesn't sound like a Theresa May wish list!
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

no. You have to treat all EU students equally. The rules of the single market makes privatisation very easy and to reverse it and/or state intervention very difficult.

Ok, so the fact that Scottish Students get free tuition in Scotland, but no one else does has passed you by obviously?

You seem to have lots of issues, but none of them actually real.

 

[Woosh]

. That doesn't sound like a Theresa May wish list!
.

she would be gone before the next GE.
There is nothing to stop the tories nicking labour's idea how to do all of this.
1. tuition fee: we know that a lot of students can't and won't pay it back, we simply re-nationalise the student loan company
2. re-nationalise water, power, post office and rail: the way Labour will do this is intelligent, these companies will issue government backed bonds at fixed interest, pensioners and insurance companies will queue up to buy them. I'll buy some of those bonds myself.
None of this can be done without getting out of the EU.