Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

It's difficult to take seriously these comments about those people who choose to speak out being somehow causing "division". The speakers certainly live in a different world from mine.
We have a Government that has deliberately targeted the disadvantaged in our society, the poor, the unemployed, the sick and disabled, and has subjected them to a sustained barrage of name-calling and abuse while being ably assisted by the Tory Press. The aim of this divisive campaign is clearly to divert the attention of the bulk of our population from the massive gap which exists between the poor and the rich, which is a gap ever-growing on our society and they do this while those responsible for the collapse of the economy are awarded millions in bonuses.
If that were not enough an internal power struggle in the Tory party results in a referendum which splits the UK and casts us into an uncertain future.
All this....and yet they can call critics who speak out as "divisive"....I mean you couldn't make it up.

Yes, I agree. That's a fair comment.
My point throughout all this is the reasonable,intelligent adults amongst us should all strive to denounce aggression and acts of sheer stupidity which are without doubt becoming more prevalent.
IMHO folk adopting know it all tones, insulting manner,patronising responses are only serving to make matters worse. In some cases I can see why they do it. Tom has justified an almost argued for revolution.
If we look through this entire thread I cant remember an insult originating from a leaver. Almost without exception ( in here) the self righteous,insulting and patronising manner has not come from us " racist,bigoted,thick,misinformed leavers,or trolls,it has come from remainers.( to be fair nearly always just 2 of them)
The leavers especially Woosh and Tillson have shown amazing restraint and not retaliated.( well I have,but we are all human)

Yes, we are in a mess, attributing blame and insulting will only see that mess deepen.
Personally think if we do stay it will be biggest financial missed opportunity we have ever had, but I am willing to accept that in interests of more social cohesion, which is fast eroding.
We should be applying ourselves to resolve this mess, not point out what we see as others follies.

Posting links and comments about facists / daily mail/ black shirts etc etc is sheer stupidity and will only serve to justify some nutcase from either end doing something stupid..in the name of God, or Allah or something or other. We all know the Daily Mail's history, just as we do our Royal Family's.
And yes OG there were threats of violence on this thread.There are a string of posts missing , which were removed . There were also some distasteful private messages.I cant prove the point as the offending posts were removed, but it happened .

And as far all the faults of our present government, the answer to that is at the voting booth and not posting provocative comments on internet.

 

[Georgew]

Yes, I agree. That's a fair comment.
My point throughout all this is the reasonable,intelligent adults amongst us should all strive to denounce aggression and acts of sheer stupidity which are without doubt becoming more prevalent.
IMHO folk adopting know it all tones, insulting manner,patronising responses are only serving to make matters worse. In some cases I can see why they do it. Tom has justified an almost argued for revolution.
If we look through this entire thread I cant remember an insult originating from a leaver. Almost without exception ( in here) the self righteous,insulting and patronising manner has not come from us " racist,bigoted,thick,misinformed leavers,its has come from remainers.( to be fair nearly always just 2 of them)
The leavers especially Woosh and Tillson have shown amazing restraint and not retaliated.( well I have,but we are all human)

Yes, we are in a mess, attributing blame and insulting will only see that mess deepen.
Personally think if we do stay it will be biggest financial missed opportunity we have ever had, but I am willing to accept that in interests of more social cohesion, which is fast eroding.
We should be applying ourselves to resolve this mess, not point out what we see as others follies.

I may not agree with leavers but given the untruths and propaganda of the leave campaign I can well see why they voted that way.....but I then I would not insult them for their opinions. Social cohesion is all very well but if this is based upon a hatred of immigrants then it's not worth having.

I note you say that you agree with my views regarding the divisions that exist in society and plead for an end to remarks you see as insulting. The thing is that what I see as insulting is the attempt to cast critics of this extremist Government as left-wing zealots of some sort... as if speaking out against the excesses of this extreme right-wing Government is somehow unpatriotic and un-British. The truth is of course that the Tory Party, and to be fair the present Parliamentary Labour Party do not have the interests of this country at heart. They lack all principles and have no principles beyond self-enrichment and self-advancement. As Galbraith said:....
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
As to Labour....what can be said when one watches Labour MPs buying up shares in those US Care companies which seek to predate upon our NHS.

As it stands Westminster is rotten to the core and has long ceased to command respect.

 

[Zlatan]

I may not agree with leavers but given the untruths and propaganda of the leave campaign I can well see why they voted that way.....but I then I would not insult them for their opinions. Social cohesion is all very well but if this is based upon a hatred of immigrants then it's not worth having.

I note you say that you agree with my views regarding the divisions that exist in society and plead for an end to remarks you see as insulting. The thing is that what I see as insulting is the attempt to cast critics of this extremist Government as left-wing zealots of some sort... as if speaking out against the excesses of this extreme right-wing Government is somehow unpatriotic and un-British. The truth is of course that the Tory Party, and to be fair the present Parliamentary Labour Party do not have the interests of this country at heart. They lack all principles and have no principles beyond self-enrichment and self-advancement. As Galbraith said:....
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
As to Labour....what can be said when one watches Labour MPs buying up shares in those US Care companies which seek to predate upon our NHS.

As it stands Westminster is rotten to the core and has long ceased to command respect.

Well we,ve all lost faith in parliament which should create vacuum for the right party/ person to step up..unfortunately it isn't..
And no I,m not judging left wing zealots or even criticising their views, I,m criticising the language of hate from both sides.
Tom has every right to attend rallies in London, every right to criticise current govt, every right to put forward any opinion he wishes. He has no right to wrongly call me a racist, all tories scum,Tillson a bigot...the list goes on.
The same applies to us all.
Yes question, yes criticise but don't generalise or insult...or rake up hate from the past. Neither ate productive ir helpful, infact quite the reverse.

People coming on here and telling me why I voted as I did is wrong.
To be honest this is old ground and asking Tom and OG to refrain from insult and patronisation has proved utterly pointless.
People wrongly assume I,m somehow right wing for arguing against Tom. That couldn't be further from truth.

I,m giving at a rest again on here.
Take care. I,m off sailing.

 

[tommie]

Enjoy your sailing...

pig and grunt

why do those words spring to mind?? lol!

 

[flecc]

Enjoy your sailing...

pig and grunt

why do those words spring to mind?? lol!

Sailing terms? Pig iron is used as ballast material in boats, and in the Scottish dictionary the form graunt means a promontory.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Well we,ve all lost faith in parliament which should create vacuum for the right party/ person to step up..unfortunately it isn't..
And no I,m not judging left wing zealots or even criticising their views, I,m criticising the language of hate from both sides.
Tom has every right to attend rallies in London, every right to criticise current govt, every right to put forward any opinion he wishes. He has no right to wrongly call me a racist, all tories scum,Tillson a bigot...the list goes on.
The same applies to us all.
Yes question, yes criticise but don't generalise or insult...or rake up hate from the past. Neither ate productive ir helpful, infact quite the reverse.

People coming on here and telling me why I voted as I did is wrong.
To be honest this is old ground and asking Tom and OG to refrain from insult and patronisation has proved utterly pointless.
People wrongly assume I,m somehow right wing for arguing against Tom. That couldn't be further from truth.

I,m giving at a rest again on here.
Take care. I,m off sailing.

While you are away look up the word insult and in future don't use it as an attempt to deflect criticism that you don't like, nor use insults yourself.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

And yes OG there were threats of violence on this thread.There are a string of posts missing , which were removed . There were also some distasteful private messages.I cant prove the point as the offending posts were removed, but it happened .

Would that be one of the posts I caught you out trying to alter afterwards, and the threat of violence came from a leave voter remember?
Private messages? once again you are lapsing into Fantasy, if they were Private messages neither of us would have seen them on the Forum, would we.
Before taking this person's seemingly reasonable viewpoint at face value, I urge anyone not familiar with his past posting record to look back through the thread, where he cries Wolf at every opportunity, and has a history of roundly insulting both the EU and the politicians therein.
The intensity of his dislike of the organisation is surprising.
For most of the duration of this thread he lied that he had not voted leave, until cornered into admitting he had.
These posts are there for all to see that care to look.

 

[oldgroaner]

This demonstrates the Telegraphs view rather well

So they are a burden are they?

 

[oldgroaner]

Stupid remark of the day from Andrea Leadsom
"
Brexit: Andrea Leadsom says broadcasters need to be patriotic
Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says broadcasters need to be more patriotic while reporting the UK's negotiations with the EU.

She told Newsnight's Emily Maitlis that the country needs to pull together.
So opposing Brexit is somehow NOT Patriotic?
Phoney woman!

 

[Woosh]

Andrea Leadsom is as skillful as Diane Abbott.
I suppose remainers will want now to see her on TV more often.
I must say Maitlis was quick to pick it up and has a pretty sharp tongue.

 

[oldgroaner]

Andrea Leadsom is as skillful as Diane Abbott.
I suppose remainers will want now to see her on TV more often.
I must say Maitlis was quick to pick it up and has a pretty sharp tongue.

It would be more enlightening to watch the Muppets

 

[oldtom]

All the time that people vote the tory party into office, only the marionette may change; the team of puppeteers remains the same. In this infographic, only the current 'godfather of godfathers' is depicted.



Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

here for your amusement is "Project Fear from the Bankers" courtesy of Reuters
"
Exclusive: Report says EU firms face higher banking bills after Brexit

A report has concluded that a so-called hard Brexit could cost banks up to 35 billion euros (30.7 billion pounds) and European customers were being overly optimistic if they thought lenders would pick up the bill, an industry source said on Friday.

The conclusions may surprise businesses as company treasurers contacted by Reuters in recent weeks have said they fully expect their banks to sort out and absorb any Brexit-related costs to keep their custom.

The source was quoting from a report on the impact of Brexit on companies and investors commissioned by the Association for Financial Markets in Europe (AFME), a banking industry lobby group, and compiled by the Boston Consulting Group.

The report, due to be published next month and could still be changed, surveyed officials from more than 60 companies, most of which expected any higher costs from an abrupt cut in financial services links between Britain and the rest of the EU to be absorbed by banks.

The report concluded that, "this may be overly optimistic", the source said.


It said that banking capacity could be maintained after a hard Brexit - where Britain ends up outside the single market altogether - if banks in London operated from new subsidiaries in the European Union after Britain leaves the bloc in 2019.

But reconfiguring banks would be "slow" and could cost as much as 15 billion euros which, if spread over three to five years, could cut banks' return on equity by 0.5 to 0.8 of a percentage point.


Fragmenting Europe's capital markets would also force banks to hold up to 20 billion euros in extra capital across the sector, the source quoted from the report.

The aim of the report is to show policymakers negotiating Britain's departure from the EU that failing to give banks in London access to the single market would hit Europe's companies and economy.

Put simply the Banks think that they will get away with keeping their customers after Charging them for opening subsidiaries in the EU.

The arrogance of these people with this!
European customers were being overly optimistic if they thought lenders would pick up the bill, an industry source said on Friday.
In other words we are doing you a big favour in letting you use our sevices and we intend to charge you because we have had to move?
The EU will tell them what they can do with that idea.

Hopeless Propaganda! and an excellent way to drive EU businesses to bank in the Far East.
Have these supposedly "Financial Wizards" lost their minds, in the same way as the Government?
They truly believe that the world owes them a living!

 

[Woosh]

In other words we are doing you a big favour in letting you use our sevices and we intend to charge you because we have had to move?

yes. What else can it be?
supply and demand, whichever way you look at it.

 

[oldgroaner]

yes. What else can it be?
supply and demand, whichever way you look at it.

The problem from the Bankers point of view Is they are not the only suppliers, there are plenty more ready and waiting to step into the breach, which won't help our economy one bit, will it?
Bluffing at a time like this is quite simply madness.
It's not as if they can't afford to take the "hit" over moving is it?
The economy here will suffer not them.

 

[Woosh]

Bluffing at a time like this is quite simply madness.

it's not bluffing.
clearing business is like the diamond business. You only have a small number of players, they control the price of diamonds in the same way than some banks control the clearing trade.

 

[Georgew]

Would that be one of the posts I caught you out trying to alter afterwards, and the threat of violence came from a leave voter remember?
Private messages? once again you are lapsing into Fantasy, if they were Private messages neither of us would have seen them on the Forum, would we.
Before taking this person's seemingly reasonable viewpoint at face value, I urge anyone not familiar with his past posting record to look back through the thread, where he cries Wolf at every opportunity, and has a history of roundly insulting both the EU and the politicians therein.
The intensity of his dislike of the organisation is surprising.
For most of the duration of this thread he lied that he had not voted leave, until cornered into admitting he had.
These posts are there for all to see that care to look.

Goodness me........it seems that I've wandered trouser-less into a minefield.

 

[Croxden]

Goodness me........it seems that I've wandered trouser-less into a minefield.

I don't think trousers will be helping or hindering here.
The majority won, get over it. Brexit 'astards.

 

[oldgroaner]

Goodness me........it seems that I've wandered trouser-less into a minefield.

As a pastime it does have the element of surprise and it's not boring, this thread has more entries than the Moscow telephone directory for the collector to browse through!

Most posts are good and original with the caveat
The posts that are original aren't good
The posts that are good aren't original.

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't think trousers will be helping or hindering here.
The majority won, get over it. Brexit 'astards.

And that is one of the "originals" I was referring to
"Brexit 'astards" ?
That's a new one on me.
Now we have to guess which side you are on I suspect...........