Brexit, for once some facts.

Danidl

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Copied from the Irish times yesterday . Article by fintan o toole



Dante and Beatrice. Quasimodo and Esmeralda. Cyrano and Roxane. Don Quixote and Esmeralda. These unrequited loves have great poignancy. But they’ve nothing on the tenderest, most poignant tale of unrequited love in our times, the tragically one-sided crush the DUP has on Britain.

It is one thing to be infatuated with someone who just ignores you. The unfulfilled love retains its bittersweet purity, its dreamy half-life of pure possibility. But the true tragedy occurs when your love is apparently consummated at last and you find that the loved one really despises you. The DUP has long dreamed of being wrapped fully in the warm embrace of the Tory world with which it strives so hard to identify. And now, miraculously, its moment has come. But the loved one is thinking of England, sneaking glances at her watch and praying “Oh god! When will this be over?”

The DUP used to be unionist but not really British. Ian Paisley was many things but no one could ever seriously think of him as a Brit. His touchstones were fundamentalist Presbyterian dissent and the place he called Ulster. Its hinterland was Calvinist Scotland, not Westminster.

The aphrodisiac that got the DUP all hot on Britishness was, of course, Brexit. David Cameron’s referendum gave the DUP a chance to indulge in a fantasy of ultra-Britishness. It had been forced, in its slow and reluctant acceptance of the Belfast Agreement, to come to terms with the complicated reality of its world, which is the island of Ireland in all its ambiguities of belonging. For the DUP, Brexit was a kind of holiday from this messy, compromised reality, a mental sojourn in a sunny Playa del Ingles where all the cafes fly the Union flag and serve fish and chips.

Moment of destiny
The problem, of course, is that the holiday turned out to be a semi-permanent relocation. The DUP was surely as perplexed as Boris Johnson was when the jolly jaunt to imperial nostalgia turned into a moment of destiny. The day trippers to Little Britain found out that there was no return train and that they were stranded on a beach far from reality with the tide of bad news slowly but relentlessly coming in. That’s not Land of Hope and Gloryplaying on the Tannoy – it’s Hotel California .

The other problem is that Northern Ireland, Paisley’s beloved Ulster, voted emphatically against Brexit. And this, paradoxically, has forced the DUP to double down on its besotted Britishness. It can justify ignoring the democratic wishes of the polity it actually leads only by reviving a notorious line from Margaret Thatcher. She said in 1981 that Northern Ireland is as British as her own constituency of Finchley. The DUP has to claim that Northern Ireland is as British as Lambeth or Edinburgh – it doesn’t matter that they all voted Remain because they are merely parts of the greater British whole.

This is nonsense, of course. Northern Ireland is not as British as Finchley and Brexit dramatises the difference: it is not the absolute right of the residents of Finchley to remain citizens of the European Union after Brexit. But it is, for the DUP, a necessary nonsense. It has to remain frozen in an absurd ultra-British posture that even Thatcher abandoned when she signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985.

The infatuation mires the DUP in a hopeless contradiction. Because it wants to be super-British, its manifesto in the Westminster election commits it to a hard Brexit, including exit from the customs union. But because it is actually an Irish political party, it really wants a soft Border. And these two desires are utterly incompatible. You can leave a customs union or you can remain within an arrangement where no customs barriers apply. You can’t do both.

The fortunes of electoral arithmetic have now given the DUP’s pretence a weird moment of apparent validation. It is, at last, a British political party, a key player in the Westminster game. Its hour has come. But does it notice that, even as the Tory party clasps it to its bosom, the lack of enthusiasm would be scarcely less evident if the Tories were wearing rubber gloves and surgical masks? They are not swooning with love, they are fainting with revulsion.

Tragic truth
The DUP may think it is coming home; most Tories think the mad woman has come out of the attic of an old hyper-Protestant British identity and is sitting in the parlour demanding tea and scones with lots of jam and a bucket of clotted cream. She has to be humoured for now, but only until there is some way to get rid of her.

The tragic truth behind the DUP’s mooning infatuation is that for the British establishment, Northern Ireland is not a place but two places: out of sight and out of mind. And the DUP, to them, is Northern Ireland writ large, a thing from the swamp of bad history. They don’t like it and they dread having to pretend to love it. It is a frog that must be kissed but it is never going to turn into a prince. The Tories will endure the DUP while they must and betray it when they can.
 

oldgroaner

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I don't know if these bullets have an explosive charge in them or whether they intentionally break up on impact. As you say, they have been banned in warfare for many years, but I'm not sure about civil defence / law enforcement agencies.

I know the police use bullets which are designed to break up or expand inside the body, just like the ones to which you refer. The intention being that it reduced the chances of it exiting and wounding / killing someone other than the intended target.

The bullets which you describe are intended for just such circumstances. The terrorist attacks of today tend to involve the perpetrator being in close proximity to large numbers of members of the public. A bullet or a number of stray bullets exiting a terrorists body would put the public at even greater risk. Also, if the target is wearing explosives / mock explosives, it is vital that each shot inflicts the maximum amount of trauma on the body.

Not ideal, but a crowd type attack is the choice made by today's terrorists and tactics must adapt accordingly

Good work by the Daily Star blowing the cover of the people who are supposed to be keeping us safe. Stand by for tramp genocide. Still, it's better than some of their other headlines, such as a double decker bus found on the moon.
Sorry tillson but there can never be a case for using weapons that are banned because it is "Expedient" this is the way to descend into Barbarism, simply doing the terrorist work for them by reducing us to their level, and quite possibly creating more terrorists from their angry relatives in the process.
Bloody insane idea!
 
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Danidl

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EU only prepared to reimburse the paid up share capital in UK's stake-holding of the EIB and ECB, not its current values, so it appears we have effectively supported them with an interest free loan all these years . I doubt we would have signed up to them if we had known this at the time of joining them.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/position-paper-essential-principles-financial-settlement_en
.. would not be akin in wanting all the money back spent on the wife's and children's food, clothing medical expenses after a domestic resource?
 

Croxden

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Don't hunters have these expanding bullets to be sure of a clean kill, much like that legless sportsman who shot his girlfriend through the bathroom door.
 
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oldgroaner

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Ahh, at last some little progress in confronting these maniacs.

Every policeman in our major cities should now be issued with this type of weapon at once, many innocents can be saved.
And more terrorists created from this cowardly lapse into insane violence ourselves.
Please think before coming out with dangerous nonsense like that, it isn't progress to propose to use the same methods of these maniacs against them just because they frighten you or is that what you want?

Time to stop thinking like a coward, not act with mindless violence as they do, for that is exactly what they want you to do, and some people are not bright enough to see if we go down that road, the maniacs have won.
 
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oldgroaner

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Monday 19th June 2017 A Date that will live in infamy, when a fascist junta took on the EU and achieved in reality nothing of value, in the expectation that the Press can spin it into whatever they want it to be.
Also it marks the start of a new phase in this tragi comedy.

Bregret Day 1 A false Hope.

Brexit Voters! keep your list of the good things you have been promised handy so you can put a tick against each thing is it is achieved.

Can you actually remember what you were promised and by whom?
 
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Danidl

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Ahh, at last some little progress in confronting these maniacs.

Every policeman in our major cities should now be issued with this type of weapon at once, many innocents can be saved.
... Yep" an eye for an eye until everyone is blind".. from there were roses , by your county man...

There were 143 murders due to what you would rank as" terrorist"incidents in the EU last year, there were 25,500 road deaths...in the same geographic region. All to be abhorred. Are you not getting things a little Thrumpian?
 

tommie

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Copied from the Irish times yesterday . Article by fintan o toole



Dante and Beatrice. Quasimodo and Esmeralda. Cyrano and Roxane. Don Quixote and Esmeralda. These unrequited loves have great poignancy. But they’ve nothing on the tenderest, most poignant tale of unrequited love in our times, the tragically one-sided crush the DUP has on Britain.

It is one thing to be infatuated with someone who just ignores you. The unfulfilled love retains its bittersweet purity, its dreamy half-life of pure possibility. But the true tragedy occurs when your love is apparently consummated at last and you find that the loved one really despises you. The DUP has long dreamed of being wrapped fully in the warm embrace of the Tory world with which it strives so hard to identify. And now, miraculously, its moment has come. But the loved one is thinking of England, sneaking glances at her watch and praying “Oh god! When will this be over?”

The DUP used to be unionist but not really British. Ian Paisley was many things but no one could ever seriously think of him as a Brit. His touchstones were fundamentalist Presbyterian dissent and the place he called Ulster. Its hinterland was Calvinist Scotland, not Westminster.

The aphrodisiac that got the DUP all hot on Britishness was, of course, Brexit. David Cameron’s referendum gave the DUP a chance to indulge in a fantasy of ultra-Britishness. It had been forced, in its slow and reluctant acceptance of the Belfast Agreement, to come to terms with the complicated reality of its world, which is the island of Ireland in all its ambiguities of belonging. For the DUP, Brexit was a kind of holiday from this messy, compromised reality, a mental sojourn in a sunny Playa del Ingles where all the cafes fly the Union flag and serve fish and chips.

Moment of destiny
The problem, of course, is that the holiday turned out to be a semi-permanent relocation. The DUP was surely as perplexed as Boris Johnson was when the jolly jaunt to imperial nostalgia turned into a moment of destiny. The day trippers to Little Britain found out that there was no return train and that they were stranded on a beach far from reality with the tide of bad news slowly but relentlessly coming in. That’s not Land of Hope and Gloryplaying on the Tannoy – it’s Hotel California .

The other problem is that Northern Ireland, Paisley’s beloved Ulster, voted emphatically against Brexit. And this, paradoxically, has forced the DUP to double down on its besotted Britishness. It can justify ignoring the democratic wishes of the polity it actually leads only by reviving a notorious line from Margaret Thatcher. She said in 1981 that Northern Ireland is as British as her own constituency of Finchley. The DUP has to claim that Northern Ireland is as British as Lambeth or Edinburgh – it doesn’t matter that they all voted Remain because they are merely parts of the greater British whole.

This is nonsense, of course. Northern Ireland is not as British as Finchley and Brexit dramatises the difference: it is not the absolute right of the residents of Finchley to remain citizens of the European Union after Brexit. But it is, for the DUP, a necessary nonsense. It has to remain frozen in an absurd ultra-British posture that even Thatcher abandoned when she signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985.

The infatuation mires the DUP in a hopeless contradiction. Because it wants to be super-British, its manifesto in the Westminster election commits it to a hard Brexit, including exit from the customs union. But because it is actually an Irish political party, it really wants a soft Border. And these two desires are utterly incompatible. You can leave a customs union or you can remain within an arrangement where no customs barriers apply. You can’t do both.

The fortunes of electoral arithmetic have now given the DUP’s pretence a weird moment of apparent validation. It is, at last, a British political party, a key player in the Westminster game. Its hour has come. But does it notice that, even as the Tory party clasps it to its bosom, the lack of enthusiasm would be scarcely less evident if the Tories were wearing rubber gloves and surgical masks? They are not swooning with love, they are fainting with revulsion.

Tragic truth
The DUP may think it is coming home; most Tories think the mad woman has come out of the attic of an old hyper-Protestant British identity and is sitting in the parlour demanding tea and scones with lots of jam and a bucket of clotted cream. She has to be humoured for now, but only until there is some way to get rid of her.

The tragic truth behind the DUP’s mooning infatuation is that for the British establishment, Northern Ireland is not a place but two places: out of sight and out of mind. And the DUP, to them, is Northern Ireland writ large, a thing from the swamp of bad history. They don’t like it and they dread having to pretend to love it. It is a frog that must be kissed but it is never going to turn into a prince. The Tories will endure the DUP while they must and betray it when they can.
Oh dear, ole Lefty O`Toole coming across rather miffed that the DUP are in an excellent position to extract their demands from this weak Tory government,

Well Fintan just you jog on and mind your own business over that Hard EU border.... lol!

Very articulate our Fintan is, but there`s no disguising the fear of a Hard border down there, the anti-unionist DUP rant there is just frustration coming out.

Remember your biggest trading partner is the U.K., how`s that going to pan out with the impending Tariffs and barriers?

the UK can take a hit and absorb it ....... but the ROI economy??

Here Dan, do you remember the days of the aul turf fire, the fan bellows and the donkey and cart??!
 
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Danidl

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Oh dear, ole Lefty O`Toole coming across rather miffed that the DUP are in an excellent position to extract their demands from this weak Tory government,

Well Fintan just you jog on and mind your own business over that Hard EU border.... lol!

Very articulate our Fintan is, but there`s no disguising the fear of a Hard border down there, the anti-unionist DUP rant there is just frustration coming out.

Remember your biggest trading partner is the U.K., how`s that going to pan out with the impending Tariffs and barriers?

the UK can take a hit and absorb it ....... but the ROI economy??

Here Dan, do you remember the days of the aul turf fire, the fan bellows and the donkey and cart??!
See I can agree with you yes I am very worried about a hard Brexit, as are many of the people south of the border. A border which exists currently as a slight change in road surfaces, but is very likely to become a completely different animal, if a hard Brexit results. How will you feel when you cannot travel through Newry with all the large artics blocking the roads as they try to gain passage to Rosslare on euroroute 1. ?
How will you feel when the creameries in NI are no longer able to sell their cheap milk in Dunnes in Dundalk? , Or you to get your Monaghan mushrooms or your duck from Clones. Or your cheap Ryanair flights, It unfortunately cuts both ways.. and we both will be the losers.
How sure are you that the UK can take this hit,? Where has the white papers , the economic analysis been done. It is being done in Dublin, has it been done in London.
And yes I have been in houses with all of the above .. except the donkey. I have seen the improvement in living standards south of the border, we used to envy you your roads, not now though. We do appreciate the value of the a EU and surprise, surprise,, the majority of your province concur. The motor way Dundalk to Newry exists only because we , in the republic underwrote it, and it is better than any in NI, and from experience, better than the main roads through Wales
 
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tillson

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Sorry tillson but there can never be a case for using weapons that are banned because it is "Expedient" this is the way to descend into Barbarism, simply doing the terrorist work for them by reducing us to their level, and quite possibly creating more terrorists from their angry relatives in the process.
Bloody insane idea!
I accept that the best solution is to try and negate or remove the factors which motivate people into committing acts of terrorism in the first place. This isn't going to happen instantly, but that is no reason to delay trying.

Meanwhile, people will turn to further acts of violence and try to murder as many innocent people as possible. I see that only last night, there was a racist / terror attack, but at a mosque this time. Most, if not all, of the victims will have no responsibility for the grievances of the murderer. So, what do the security forces / police do in a situation like the recent bridge attack in London? Confronted with armed men actively engaged in a killing process and reasonably thought to be carrying explosives.

It would be a strange even reckless decision to attempt to stop them with non-lethal force. That would almost certainly result in death or serious injury for a police officer. So, if you are going to shoot, do you want the bullet to exit the terrorist at high velocity and to then randomly ricochet around a confined area, which is potentially packed with families of all ages? Do you just want to wound a person in the same area who simply has to press a button to kill everyone around him? I'd say that in these extreme circumstance, the only course of action is to remove the threat with minimum risk to bystanders. A soft nosed bullet is the tool for that particular job.

I don't think that it's just the UK who use them either. Armed, on board aircraft security officers of all nations have them so that in the event that they shoot a person, the bullet doesn't go through the aircraft fuselage, with a potential catastrophic affect.

These soft nosed bullets are nasty things and cause massive amounts of trauma. That is why they are banned in warfare. In the absence of an alternative, they are also highly effective in the situations described above. They are a tool for an unpleasant and dangerous job.
 
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Croxden

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She never said strong & stable once. Soon changes her her mind that women.
 

oldgroaner

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I accept that the best solution is to try and negate or remove the factors which motivate people into committing acts of terrorism in the first place. This isn't going to happen instantly, but that is no reason to delay trying.

Meanwhile, people will turn to further acts of violence and try to murder as many innocent people as possible. I see that only last night, there was a racist / terror attack, but at a mosque this time. Most, if not all, of the victims will have no responsibility for the grievances of the murderer. So, what do the security forces / police do in a situation like the recent bridge attack in London? Confronted with armed men actively engaged in a killing process and reasonably thought to be carrying explosives.

It would be a strange even reckless decision to attempt to stop them with non-lethal force. That would almost certainly result in death or serious injury for a police officer. So, if you are going to shoot, do you want the bullet to exit the terrorist at high velocity and to then randomly ricochet around a confined area, which is potentially packed with families of all ages? Do you just want to wound a person in the same area who simply has to press a button to kill everyone around him? I'd say that in these extreme circumstance, the only course of action is to remove the threat with minimum risk to bystanders. A soft nosed bullet is the tool for that particular job.

I don't think that it's just the UK who use them either. Armed, on board aircraft security officers of all nations have them so that in the event that they shoot a person, the bullet doesn't go through the aircraft fuselage, with a potential catastrophic affect.

These soft nosed bullets are nasty things and cause massive amounts of trauma. That is why they are banned in warfare. In the absence of an alternative, they are also highly effective in the situations described above. They are a tool for an unpleasant and dangerous job.
The Tazer was invented to replace such obscene weapons and there are other none lethal weapons such as stun and gas grenades, also some sonic disabling weapons available but hell, let's reduce ourselves to the same level of Barbarism as the enemy eh?
There are 65 Million of us and a handful of them so we cower in fear and ape their behaviour?
That is you seem to believe progress in the "Right" direction.
Sorry it simply isn't, just adds to the Mayhem, and creates Martyrs, since being killed is one of their obectives.
And it allows the terrorists to proclaim how much they have succeeded in frightening the cowardly infidels.
Look at it from the enemies point of view, their propaganda purpose is to die for the cause, so they attack with knives or bombs, impressing their would be supporters with so called Martyrdom for "The cause" for instance and we reply with illegal weaponry, very much like poison gassing of the kirds from the oppositions viewpoint.
We are doing exactly what they want us to do and falling into their trap.
Unfortunately you are proving them right.
We need to react with intelligence not mere brute force and ignorance.
 
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Croxden

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tillson

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The Tazer was invented to replace such obscene weapons and there are other none lethal weapons such as stun and gas grenades, also some sonic disabling weapons available but hell, let's reduce ourselves to the same level of Barbarism as the enemy eh?
There are 65 Million of us and a handful of them so we cower in fear and ape their behaviour?
That is you seem to believe progress in the "Right" direction.
Sorry it simply isn't, just adds to the Mayhem, and creates Martyrs, since being killed is one of their obectives.
And it allows the terrorists to proclaim how much they have succeeded in frightening the cowardly infidels.
Look at it from the enemies point of view, their propaganda purpose is to die for the cause, so they attack with knives or bombs, impressing their would be supporters with so called Martyrdom for "The cause" for instance and we reply with illegal weaponry, very much like poison gassing of the kirds from the oppositions viewpoint.
We are doing exactly what they want us to do and falling into their trap.
Unfortunately you are proving them right.
We need to react with intelligence not mere brute force and ignorance.
First, lets establish the fact that these bullets are not illegal or prohibit. They are entirely legal and approved internationally for police use in confined spaces to prevent collateral damage or injury. They are prohibited from use on the battle field during warfare, but that isn't what we are talking about.

The non lethal options you suggest, irritants, taser, and sound are available. The irritant gasses are totally ineffective on a large percentage of the population. They are simply immune to it. If the officer uses it and it doesn't work, he's a dead man and the killing of the public will continue. If he uses taser it's likely it will detonate explosives strapped to the terrorist. Again, the officer is a dead man and so are countless members of the public. It's the same story with all of the non-lethal options, including baton rounds under these rare but extreme circumstances. We have spoken about conventional bullets and the potential for stray ricochet rounds.

Taser is absolutely the wrong weapon to confront a terrorise with. Police officers will die using them. So, you are the commander when an incident such as the recent London attack come in. Men have run over many people, they are wearing explosives and are chasing and stabbing people to death in a crowded area. What are you going to order your officers to do? Give up their guns and go in armed only with CS spray and hand held taser? Attend with conventional bullets and defend criticism when the public are killed by stray police bullets? Or order the use of soft nosed bullets? I will be interested to hear.
 
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Zlatan

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Slightly off topic but years ago ( with demand for soldiers to carry more rounds) ballistics experts worked out how to get a seemingly small bullet ( travelling very very quickly) to have stopping power of larger counterpart. The 5 .56 mm round is teetering on instability ( they reduced turns in barrel to absolute minimum and gave bullet "odd" flight dynamics..Result it hits something and tumbles end over end..transmitting all its energy to victim.. Yes it doesn't splinter like hollow point/ soft nose/and new round mentioned but its actually the energy that does all damage.
We are talking degrees in difference of severe damage, all inflict terrible injuries.
From services point of view they must be allowed to choose the weapon and ammunition that does the job most effectively in situations they encounter.
We should also be working towards eradicating their cause but that's a different argument and will not be achieved by limiting effectiveness of services.
 
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