Brexit, for once some facts.

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
This addition to the thread is tangential, rather than a direct comment on the material issue of 'Brexit' and I make no apology for that.

Billy Bragg, writer, singer, socialist and political commentator has this to say at the moment and I very strongly agree with his opinion:

The next time you hear someone complaining about health and safety, or whinging about too much red tape, or demanding that for every new regulation introduced, three are removed; when you hear someone say that it just costs too much to install sprinklers or fire doors or use fire-resistant materials, that profits are more important than safety; when firefighters, police and medical staff suffer cuts; when you are told that we can have low taxes AND good public services - think of this image. And pray for the people of Grenfell Tower.
19146084_10154401363412471_5218564731638373612_n.png

Tom
 

homemoz

Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2007
181
168
UK
This addition to the thread is tangential, rather than a direct comment on the material issue of 'Brexit' and I make no apology for that.

Billy Bragg, writer, singer, socialist and political commentator has this to say at the moment and I very strongly agree with his opinion:



View attachment 19743

Tom
Also agreed. The whole thing is just sickening.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,317
16,843
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
another view wanting the hardest of all Brexits.
I suspect those who want hard brexit do so because they can't face the divorce bill. They just don't want to pick up any tab.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
I suspect those who want hard brexit do so because they can't face the divorce bill. They just don't want to pick up any tab.
... Or are ideologically driven. It does not follow that were the UK to reneage on their committments at EU level, by failing to engage in negotiations, that that would make them exempt from payments. There are other fora including UN sanctions. GATT etc.
I have no idea what liabilities are or would be incurred by the UK, but sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring them is not usually a winning strategy.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,317
16,843
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Or are ideologically driven.
I don't think they are that fixated on ideology except a handful like Mogg, Raab and possibly Fox. Most of them, like Hannan, probably did not think that the divorce bill could be that big.
Somebody like Ruth Davidson can easily frighten most of the hard brexiters with another election, they'll give up.
 

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
I have no idea what liabilities are or would be incurred by the UK, but sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring them is not usually a winning strategy.
Simple calculation, find out the total nett UK contributions, remove the running costs, remove divorce bill then return the surplus to us:)
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,317
16,843
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
remove the running costs,
it seems that the EU would like to include forward running costs up to 2022-2025 on the basis that we have agreed to them.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
It appears that Labour plus Libs plus DUP plus Scots Tories plus SNP plus Greens plus Sinn Fein plus a few rebel Tories all want a soft Brexit. That would appear to be more than May has seats.
So if May goes for a hard Brexit driven on by the 80 Tory 'Rees Moggs. She doesn't have a majority for that.
She can't get a majority for the Queens speech, so where do we go next.
Maybe a coalition with Labour to get even a soft Brexit through or have a second referendum on the type of Brexit ?
KudosDave
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
It appears that Labour plus Libs plus DUP plus Scots Tories plus SNP plus Greens plus Sinn Fein plus a few rebel Tories all want a soft Brexit. That would appear to be more than May has seats.
So if May goes for a hard Brexit driven on by the 80 Tory 'Rees Moggs. She doesn't have a majority for that.
She can't get a majority for the Queens speech, so where do we go next.
Maybe a coalition with Labour to get even a soft Brexit through or have a second referendum on the type of Brexit ?
KudosDave
... The last option would be my preferred one. With a fully costed white paper detailing all the options, and no fairy stories provided before a debate and referendum. Nobody can claim that the UK population were informed prior to the last one. They were conflicted between a fear of immigration, a fear of leaving, wanting "to stick one to the man ", genuine believers in "ourselves alone "... (Which incidentally is the English translation of Sinn Fein) , and any number of other causes .
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
Simple calculation, find out the total nett UK contributions, remove the running costs, remove divorce bill then return the surplus to us:)
.. would that be before or after the already considerable rebate negotiated by Thatcher or the benefits of the banking passport? .or the reduced tariffs the UK enjoyed over the 40 years. Not simple
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
As I pointed out earlier the only rational course is to form a Government of National Unity from all parties and approach the negotiations with the complete range of options including cancellation of Brexit.
And this time have the Gonads to make a decision and earn their so generous stipend.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
As I pointed out earlier the only rational course is to form a Government of National Unity from all parties and approach the negotiations with the complete range of options including cancellation of Brexit.
And this time have the Gonads to make a decision and earn their so generous stipend.
.. would fully agree with that strategy . In Ireland we also had an election with no definite result so the two major parties, long time adversaries, have a confidence and supply arrangement. Not going into government, but supporting the slightly bigger party, on defined specific items eg budgets and votes of confidence and abstaining on a number of other topics and voting against on yet others, on the understanding that the government will not fall if it loses a vote. It's kind of like democracy
 
Last edited:

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
.. would fully agree with that strategy . In Ireland we also had an election with no definite result so the two major parties, long time adversaries, have a confidence and supply arrangement. Not going into government, but supporting the slightly bigger party, on defined specific items eg budgets and votes of confidence and abstaining on a number of other topics and voting against on yet others, on the understanding that the government will not fall if it loses a vote. It's kind of like democracy
Democracy? Is that some new fangled idea? The papers will deplore it as a leftie conspiracy, it'll never catch on, not British!
Quite likely a plot from the EU, you mark my words they are trying to ruin the return of the robber barons! (AKA) brexit
We don't have democracy we have party politics here,
 
Last edited:

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
From the Daily Mirror
"
Tories confirm start date for Brexit talks - and they'll now kick off BEFORE delayed Queen's Speech
The Tory government has confirmed the start date for Brexit talks - Monday 19 June, before Parliament begins its annual session
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
Off topic but mad enough to report
"
Donald Trump sells Qatar $12bn of weapons days after accusing it of funding terrorism
Qatar is currently isolated within the region by neighbours which accuse it of sponsoring terrorism.

How do we escape this place and get back to Planet Earth?
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
From the Daily Mirror
"
Tories confirm start date for Brexit talks - and they'll now kick off BEFORE delayed Queen's Speech
The Tory government has confirmed the start date for Brexit talks - Monday 19 June, before Parliament begins its annual session
Is that legal?. All the government are in a caretaker capacity, with the exception of the speaker of the house who has now been elected into place.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
Is that legal?. All the government are in a caretaker capacity, with the exception of the speaker of the house who has now been elected into place.
I think so, the date was set when they were in power so it's just a continuation of that authority. Changing the date at this stage wouldn't be legal.
.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
We don't have democracy we have party politics here,
I can't criticise party politics OG as similar systems exist elsewhere and indeed, seem to operate advantageously in a democratic manner.

What I do take exception to is an antiquated electoral system, inherently flawed in that it is gerrymandered in such a way as to satisfy the British aristocracy/monarchy and the very small percentage of the population who own the biggest businesses, most of the land, rented property and the most money.

The net result inevitably brings about the kind of government we have today and have had continuously since 1979. While those in power as a result of the lopsided constituency arrangements will obviously have no desire to revise that situation and bring about change, to claim that it is democracy and represents the will of the people is an utter travesty. Our parliament is nothing less than an amalgam of oligarchy and plutocracy, euphemistically referred to by their media wing as democracy. If you think American politics is all about money, make no mistake, UK politics is every bit as bad, if not worse.

There are 650 parliamentary seats and if you don't understand how that number is arrived at and if you then wonder, as you may, why that is the case, you need to do some research. In the course of that research, you might wish to pay particular attention to the make-up of the boundaries commission - there is more than one - and try to establish if there is anything resembling transparency in their personnel appointments. You may further wonder if those appointees are in any way connected with reality or are simply puppets of the elite.

My view is that all the existing commissions should be abolished and a new body created by way of a cross-party commission, comprising equal numbers of the top 6, 8 or 10 parties in terms of existing seats. Give them two tasks: (1) Abolish the HofL and (2) Re-configure the constituency boundaries in such a way that a proper numerical balance of eligible voters is achieved. This is crucial work and transparency, honesty and accountability are paramount. We have never had that in constituency boundary arrangements before.

Some serious austerity in the parliamentary system would be very welcome for a number of reasons, not least the cost savings that it would bring the taxpayers. The gravy train needs to be brought to a halt and replaced by a one-chamber parliament with each representative responsible for a similar number of constituents, regardless of whether that requires 100, 400 or 800 MPs.

I think it would require a PR voting system in place to ensure a balanced make-up of parliamentary seats. A two-term maximum occupancy before retirement from the role of MP would also make a lot of sense.

The only other alternative I can see is to abolish parliament entirely and force the royals to earn their crust by actually governing and ruling over people as in days of yore.:rolleyes:

Tom
 

Advertisers